Powerwall 2 "waiting list"

[K-MTG]

I am holding off on the powerwall until it actually exist. I want it to be a product I can just buy at the Tesla store and have a electrician install. Don't want to deal with $13k installs (what I was previously quoted for power wall 1 over the phone)

 

[JeffreyY]

From the conversation I had with the representative, and her follow up email, SolarCity is now in charge of Tesla Energy:

It's certainly not the direction I prefer to see them going.

I did receive the latest spec sheets for the AC and DC Powerwall 2 products, but I don't think there is anything new here. Attached regardless.

Tesla was basically steering me towards the AC power wall (which was a surprise to me). OhmMan, what are your thoughts or what have you been told going AC or DC power wall?

Originaly, I had thought I'd get a StorEdge and put the PowerWall on the DC power bus. However, Tesla is saying I can accomplish everything the AC route and I have more flexibility of placement of the PowerWalls as a result.

I want to make sure I'm getting the right info.

 

[Ulmo]

Tesla was basically steering me towards the AC power wall (which was a surprise to me). OhmMan, what are your thoughts or what have you been told going AC or DC power wall?

Originaly, I had thought I'd get a StorEdge and put the PowerWall on the DC power bus. However, Tesla is saying I can accomplish everything the AC route and I have more flexibility of placement of the PowerWalls as a result.

I want to make sure I'm getting the right info.

I want to say plausible but we don't know and when they start shipping we can know more, but I just made that up so I feel useless saying it.

 

[JeffreyY]

Well, the way it was explained to me is the Gateway is quite a cool contraption. I live in Hawaii, so we have a lot of sunlight but one grid provider. One of the things that is really annoying is when we have lots of sun but the power is out. Aka solar production but the inverters are off because the grid doesn't allow feedback during an outage.

So, the Tesla gateway supposedly has a cutoff aka an automated transfer switch. It can then create a signal that simulates the grid which allows the inverters to think the grid is active allowing the solar to power the house or batteries.

Then when the batteries get full and consumption is low, the gateway can change the frequency and turn the solar inverters off. It sounds really amazing.

 

[ohmman]

Tesla was basically steering me towards the AC power wall (which was a surprise to me). OhmMan, what are your thoughts or what have you been told going AC or DC power wall?

I haven't had any direction other than that brief weird call that started this thread. It sounds like you've heard more than me, so unfortunately, I can't be very helpful.

I am quite impressed with your description of the gateway, though.

 

[JeffreyY]

I haven't had any direction other than that brief weird call that started this thread. It sounds like you've heard more than me, so unfortunately, I can't be very helpful.

I am quite impressed with your description of the gateway, though.

Agreed, I was impressed with the functionality of the gateway as well!

 

[bonaire]

Well, the way it was explained to me is the Gateway is quite a cool contraption. I live in Hawaii, so we have a lot of sunlight but one grid provider. One of the things that is really annoying is when we have lots of sun but the power is out. Aka solar production but the inverters are off because the grid doesn't allow feedback during an outage.

So, the Tesla gateway supposedly has a cutoff aka an automated transfer switch. It can then create a signal that simulates the grid which allows the inverters to think the grid is active allowing the solar to power the house or batteries.

Then when the batteries get full and consumption is low, the gateway can change the frequency and turn the solar inverters off. It sounds really amazing.

Sounds amazing but is some simple electronics. Off-grid living folks have been doing it for a decade or more. Historically, a "load" source like hot water heater was used to let the power of the solar pv go "somewhere" once the batteries are full. The proper plan is to size a system wisely so it doesn't need to turn off production much at all. I'm interested to see companies like ABB, Schneider and SMA doing similar things to keep solar roofs "active" when the grid goes down. SMA has their sunny boy and TL models of inverters. SolarEdge does it best, though.

 

[nativewolf]

I haven't had any direction other than that brief weird call that started this thread. It sounds like you've heard more than me, so unfortunately, I can't be very helpful.

I am quite impressed with your description of the gateway, though.

Just similar to what Pika energy already does with the Islanding inverter. If you live in Hawaii and need grid independence and high voltage inverters look at Pika (no connection or interest in them whatsoever just think they are nailing the inverter capabilities we want).

 

[nativewolf]

Sounds amazing but is some simple electronics. Off-grid living folks have been doing it for a decade or more. Historically, a "load" source like hot water heater was used to let the power of the solar pv go "somewhere" once the batteries are full. The proper plan is to size a system wisely so it doesn't need to turn off production much at all. I'm interested to see companies like ABB, Schneider and SMA doing similar things to keep solar roofs "active" when the grid goes down. SMA has their sunny boy and TL models of inverters. SolarEdge does it best, though.

Pika does it even better in my mind but not the publicity of SMA or Schneiders (nor the large EU footprint)

 

[bonaire]

Pika does it even better in my mind but not the publicity of SMA or Schneiders (nor the large EU footprint)

I have also heard of the Pika solutions. Never looked into them. The idea is "how to keep a solar PV array pumping power even during a grid outage". Sending a synthetic grid signal and making the power from the array (which can be very intermittent if partly cloudy) work for a system. The battery array and variant amps through an charge-inverter is kind of key to the solution. Even a small battery might work out (hence a powerwall). Anyone see the guy selling the single bricks from Tesla vehicles - something like 5.3 kWh for $1250. Something like that along with a Schneider Conext XW+ ($2.5kw or so) could offer some off-grid capability for a nice price. Get two bricks for 10kWh and you get 48V in series and the Schneider can be programmed for charge/discharge voltage ranges. Not sure I would put it "in" my house, but out in a shed is fine. Being NCA, you aren't going to do load-shaving daily with that - but however would be a nice standby system or part-time off-grid solution.

 

[nativewolf]

I have also heard of the Pika solutions. Never looked into them. The idea is "how to keep a solar PV array pumping power even during a grid outage". Sending a synthetic grid signal and making the power from the array (which can be very intermittent if partly cloudy) work for a system. The battery array and variant amps through an charge-inverter is kind of key to the solution. Even a small battery might work out (hence a powerwall). Anyone see the guy selling the single bricks from Tesla vehicles - something like 5.3 kWh for $1250. Something like that along with a Schneider Conext XW+ ($2.5kw or so) could offer some off-grid capability for a nice price. Get two bricks for 10kWh and you get 48V in series and the Schneider can be programmed for charge/discharge voltage ranges. Not sure I would put it "in" my house, but out in a shed is fine. Being NCA, you aren't going to do load-shaving daily with that - but however would be a nice standby system or part-time off-grid solution.

You should check them out. My home build was delayed by 2 years so we'll see what happens with tesla, right now I could buy HV inverter and grid tied islanding capability from Pika and that's what I would do. I'd add 2 powerwalls and call it a day, have a small honda generator to add juice if I ever needed more.

 

[bonaire]

You should check them out. My home build was delayed by 2 years so we'll see what happens with tesla, right now I could buy HV inverter and grid tied islanding capability from Pika and that's what I would do. I'd add 2 powerwalls and call it a day, have a small honda generator to add juice if I ever needed more.

In Hawaii, I can't see why any new construction even goes "on grid" with their electric prices out there.

 

[JeffreyY]

In Hawaii, I can't see why any new construction even goes "on grid" with their electric prices out there.

I think there are not always gas pipes underground and there are clouds and rainy stretches can last up to 30 days or more

 

[JeffreyY]

Tesla discontinues DC version of Powerwall 2 in Europe/APAC, only available in America and AC everywhere else

Tesla discontinuing PW2 DC version everywhere except America with this explanation:

“Tesla is committed to the development of industry-leading technology and ensuring we always provide our customers with the best products possible. The AC Powerwall includes a Tesla built-in inverter, offering customers the greatest value, flexibility, and ease of installation, regardless of whether they’re pairing Powerwall with new solar, retrofitting, or using the Powerwall for backup. As a result, we will no longer be offering the DC Powerwall, which was the same price and size of the AC Powerwall but did not include an inverter.”

 

[electracity]

Tesla discontinues DC version of Powerwall 2 in Europe/APAC, only available in America and AC everywhere else

probably Inverter and regulatory issues relating to inverters. The AC powerwall is more of a self contained system.

 

[nativewolf]

I think there are not always gas pipes underground and there are clouds and rainy stretches can last up to 30 days or more

Well you get some solar anyway and you can have a little honda generator for the days you don't. You are charging a battery not running the house so the generator can be "undersized" and basically lowest decibel possible. The small honda's are amazing.

 

[ecarfan]

Tesla discontinues DC version of Powerwall 2 in Europe/APAC, only available in America and AC everywhere else

Interesting. I wonder why Tesla decided to continue to offer the DC Powerwall 2 in the US?

This first part of this paragraph in that article is incomprehensible. Needs to be fixed. Quote: "Tesla built a decent backlog around the world the $5,000 14 kWh bhome battery pack and production is ramping up slowly since it has to share the new ‘2170’ battery cell production with the Powerpack 2, Tesla’s utility-scale battery pack."

 

[miimura]

Interesting. I wonder why Tesla decided to continue to offer the DC Powerwall 2 in the US?

They already have the StorEdge inverter available and approved in US and South Africa. Might as well let that ride. Getting approval for somebody else's inverter in other markets probably wasn't worth it, so they just decided not to sell it anywhere else.

 

[JeffreyY]

They already have the StorEdge inverter available and approved in US and South Africa. Might as well let that ride. Getting approval for somebody else's inverter in other markets probably wasn't worth it, so they just decided not to sell it anywhere else.

Well, when I talked with my Tesla Powerwall rep, he said they sell both in the US but that their recommendation was to go with the AC for a few reasons.

1) The StorEdge only supports 2 batteries. I have a larger house, so I need at least 4. So unless I feel like replacing one of my existing inverters, AC allows me to scale better.

2) If you use the StorEdge, you're stuck using the SolarEdge app and you have to put in a special SolarEdge meter (I suspect similar to the Tesla gateway).

3) The if you use the StorEdge, you have to run a separate DC bus direct to the battery which is a limitation. Also, I don't believe SolarEdge can manage 4 batteries on 2 StorEdges as one. Tesla on the other hand has no problems managing 4 AC PW2s in a federated fashion.

4) If you use the PW2 AC, you can put the batteries anywhere on your AC system. The Tesla app manages all the PW2's and via their Gateway (included with PW purchase), it manages it for all the applications (TOU shifting, backup power, solar boot off grid etc).

I asked pretty extensively about the future. They never confirmed a Tesla inverter but I stated I ultimately expected Tesla to release an inverter and based upon that assumption am I limiting myself in any way shape or form? Answer "no" with some commentary about AC being able to accommodate all usage cases in the future. I pretty much got that the AC PW2 was the future path in Tesla's eyes. And that DC PW2 was for very specific use cases.

Second question was DC seems more efficient to me especially when one thinks about the car charging. Aka I'd like to pipe direct DC In and bypass the on-car inverters. He basically said there is not that much loss going DC-AC-DC (I think it's actually like 6%). Not a super clear answer but I'll ask when he is here next Wed again.

We discussed the whole aspect of the solar running when the grid is down and he said the Gateway allows that by mimicking the grid power signal and fooling the SolarEdge inverters as I described previously.

Finally, he said that every application one could imagine from backup power to TOU power shifting etc would all be possible with the AC power wall without limitation. And in fact that the AC power walls are their recommended route.

So, in the end, the decision for me was pretty easy. Hmmm Tesla app or SolarEdge app. No brainer. Also, for 4 PowerWalls, mounting would be much more convenient for me if I had the AC version as I have a more remote spot they would fit perfectly in. And, I kind of wanted them out of the garage. I realize I have two very large lithium batteries in my garage already with the two cars, but why add the risk of 4 more batteries in the house and some garage space sucked up when i could mount them more remotely in a room under my pool gazebo on a wall where they will be cool and dry and I won't miss the space.

 

[K-MTG]

Anyone have a estimated install cost?