Powerwall at South Facing Location

[Fruitcake]

The south facing wall gets quite hot especially in the summer. Yesterday, I measured with my thermometer gun, it read 134F. For sure I have to build some shade structure if this is the only possible location.

Do you have your PW in sunny area as well?

To be honest, mine are in a garage, elevated a few inches off the ground on a concrete sidewall

I was simply observing that the exterior case will reflect a lot of sunlight.

Fruity

 

[Fruitcake]

Don‘t leave Powerwall placement up to Tesla. It’s your house, you’re paying for the Powerwalls and you’ll live with the equipment for many years. A few more weeks delay shouldn’t be a factor.

They‘re recommending a south-facing placement either due to sheer incompetence or because it‘s the cheapest option for them, or both. I’d tell them asap that their recommended placement is unacceptable and that you will not allow the installation to proceed until a suitable location is found. Again, it’s your house not Tesla’s. They have a hard time understanding this concept so you really need to hammer home the fact that you will make, approve or reject all final decisions — not Tesla.

If you delay, they will file a permit with the location they want and revising the plans will take even longer. If that’s already happened, I still recommend patience on your part over compromise. The process, no matter how painful, only happens once. The outcome will last for at least a decade so get it right the first time. It’s not worth the time or money to relocate them later.

My Tesla solar + PW ordeal took over a year from the time I placed the order until receiving PTO (which just happened a week ago). The majority of the delay revolved around Powerwall placement. In my case, Tesla installed them in my garage, which was fine with me but it violated local fire codes. I discovered the code violation when I started digging around to figure out why nothing had happened with my project for months.

It turns out the original plans Tesla filed, and which were approved by the city prior to installation, placed the Powerwalls in my backyard. However, the install team decided that moving the Powerwalls behind my house was too much work (I’m in a hillside home so moving heavy equipment into my backyard is indeed nontrivial). The installers asked if they could install in the garage without mentioning that it was not the permitted location, that it would require filing a new permit application with revised plans, that it would require me to install bollards in front of the Powerwalls, that it would add another 3 month delay for permit approval and that the location was potentially in violation of (at that time) new fire codes. They were probably genuinely ignorant of the fire code issue, but they damn well understood all of the other pain that a non-permitted installation would cause me and yet chose to withhold that information so they could wrap up the installation in one day instead of two.

I finally got everything sorted out and forced them to relocate the Powerwalls to my (North-facing, mostly shaded) backyard location. They tried everything to avoid this, including asking me to wait ANOTHER FEW MONTHS so they could perform some demonstration to the Fire Marshall and get the fire codes changed! I wish them the best of luck with that but obviously I don’t want any part of it.

It was the most painful and outrageous experience I’ve ever had with any company, especially the part where they willfully withheld critical information and only started cooperating after I contacted the city and obtained all of the permit records myself. My point is that if I could do it all over again the only thing I would change is to take more control over the process sooner with the understanding that Tesla places their own interests far above the customer’s — at least during installation. I’m happy now that all the pain is over because the outcome is relatively ideal. The system works great, I got a fantastic price in retrospect and I’m much happier with more space in my garage and no bollards! Honestly, it’s kind of cool to see Powerwalls hanging on the garage wall but that got old after about two weeks and I just wanted the space back. Since the new (but originally planned) location gets very little sun it shouldn’t impact longevity very much, if at all. So I feel like I got the best of both worlds: out of sight but protected.

Anyway, best of luck to you. Stay strong, stay patient and don’t let Tesla decide where to install your equipment on your own property.

>Tesla installed them in my garage, which was fine with me but it violated local fire codes

What specific code did it violate? I have 2 Powerwalls in a garage and they passed multiple inspections (apparently mine was one of the very first in my township and the township wanted to "get it right" in terms of approvals, hence 2 visits by teams of 2 inspectors each).

Fruity

 

[sunwarriors]

>Tesla installed them in my garage, which was fine with me but it violated local fire codes

What specific code did it violate? I have 2 Powerwalls in a garage and they passed multiple inspections (apparently mine was one of the very first in my township and the township wanted to "get it right" in terms of approvals, hence 2 visits by teams of 2 inspectors each).

Fruity

Someone else who knows more specifics can chime in, but I think around July of this year, there is some updated fire code making putting them in garages a much bigger hassle. You may need some temp sensor, some alarm setup, other things to pass code, but since the code is new, a lot of installers/inspectors don't seem to know about it.

From some of Vines's comments, I think it's possible to still put them in the garage, but some places will fight you very hard to do that and it's a major hassle.

 

[Vines]

Someone else who knows more specifics can chime in, but I think around July of this year, there is some updated fire code making putting them in garages a much bigger hassle. You may need some temp sensor, some alarm setup, other things to pass code, but since the code is new, a lot of installers/inspectors don't seem to know about it.

From some of Vines's comments, I think it's possible to still put them in the garage, but some places will fight you very hard to do that and it's a major hassle.

You have it correct here. A few firefighters locally here are worried but the majority accept the large scale fire testing Tesla has submitted. If you are in Santa Clara County Fire district, they are overly cautious, and have been adopting the rules even earlier than other jurisdictions.

Enphase products had the fire testing accepted however, not sure the core differences.

Regardless, you need a heat alarm, and to keep the ESS out of the driving path. You also need proper fire separation from the garage, 5/8" Type X sheetrock on the wall facing the home, or this can vary per jurisdiction. Also, keep 36" from doors, windows or openings into the living or habitable space.

 

[BGbreeder]

@Vines Enphase and Tesla use very different battery chemistries, with big differences in susceptibility to, and the magnitude of, thermal runaway events. The Enphase type of lithium iron (LFP) chemistry is the least flammable of the current generation of lithium batteries. (https://fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/TC-16-17.pdf, A comparative study of thermal runaway of commercial lithium ion cells,
https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/...us-materials/rflithiumionbatterieshazard.ashx)

That is not to say that AHJs are being rational about the relative risks, and I don't think that they are. You can still charge your model S in the garage without extra thick fire doors or blast doors/windows, or special heat alarms, and yet having a single Powerwall triggers all sorts of restrictions for much less flammable material. Not at all logical. But AHJs get to do what they want until somebody sues them.

All the best,

BG

 

[Vines]

@Vines Enphase and Tesla use very different battery chemistries, with big differences in susceptibility to, and the magnitude of, thermal runaway events. The Enphase type of lithium iron (LFP) chemistry is the least flammable of the current generation of lithium batteries. (https://fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/TC-16-17.pdf, A comparative study of thermal runaway of commercial lithium ion cells,
https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/...us-materials/rflithiumionbatterieshazard.ashx)

That is not to say that AHJs are being rational about the relative risks, and I don't think that they are. You can still charge your model S in the garage without extra thick fire doors or blast doors/windows, or special heat alarms, and yet having a single Powerwall triggers all sorts of restrictions for much less flammable material. Not at all logical. But AHJs get to do what they want until somebody sues them.

All the best,

BG

The difference in LFP vs NCA is very clear.

The reason why a specific fire official has the power to override a NRTL is less obvious. I have had several discussions with him and never once was NCA vs LFP brought up.

I agree that a lawsuit would move things to a different level, and hope some very well-off customer has this appetite.

 

[BGbreeder]

I agree that it isn't obvious why.

While I am sure that you have dealt with more inspectors and AHJs than I ever have, or ever will, I have dealt with a few AHJs over the years, I have come to the view point that some officials are petty tyrants who are following the old adage about absolute power, but I am open to other possibilities... My favorite was the Menlo Park fire official who would not let us have more than fifty pounds of flour on site due to fire risk, despite permitting hot oil, open flames, and hundreds of pounds of flour in a much smaller space with many fewer escape routes just down the road (at the donut shop). I was unable to change his mind on the matter.

C'est le guerre.

BG

 

[Vines]

I agree that it isn't obvious why.

While I am sure that you have dealt with more inspectors and AHJs than I ever have, or ever will, I have dealt with a few AHJs over the years, I have come to the view point that some officials are petty tyrants who are following the old adage about absolute power, but I am open to other possibilities... My favorite was the Menlo Park fire official who would not let us have more than fifty pounds of flour on site due to fire risk, despite permitting hot oil, open flames, and hundreds of pounds of flour in a much smaller space with many fewer escape routes just down the road (at the donut shop). I was unable to change his mind on the matter.

C'est le guerre.

BG

The best anaolgy I can come up as far as garage hazards with is the allowance of tens of gallons of energy at 33 kWh per gallon. Even a motorcycle could have more gasoline energy than is allowed in a garage, if that energy is in the form of Lithium-ion batteries.

I agree with you about the attitude of some AHJ. They get a kick out of the power they wield and common sense gets lost along the way. It is among the more frustrating parts of my job, since I love things to be black and white with clear edges. As I learn more and look closer, I see the fuzzy edges on more things not less, lol