Powerwall firmware expiry?

[Sylvia Else]

Some while back, I got frustrated with the way firmware updates kept breaking things, so I blocked the Powerwall gateway's access to the Internet. I wasn't using the Ap to monitor it anyway.

And all has been good, until a couple of days ago (I've only just noticed). Access to the gateway through ethernet linked https has ceased, and the WiFi access point has disappeared.

However, the gateway can still be pinged, and it is still trying to access the Internet. I reset the gateway, but nothing has changed.

Since this cannot be due to an update, it leaves me wondering whether the firmware had a built-in expiry that kills the owner's access after a certain time.

Anyone else found themselves in this position?

 

[h2ofun]

Some while back, I got frustrated with the way firmware updates kept breaking things, so I blocked the Powerwall gateway's access to the Internet. I wasn't using the Ap to monitor it anyway.

And all has been good, until a couple of days ago (I've only just noticed). Access to the gateway through ethernet linked https has ceased, and the WiFi access point has disappeared.

However, the gateway can still be pinged, and it is still trying to access the Internet. I reset the gateway, but nothing has changed.

Since this cannot be due to an update, it leaves me wondering whether the firmware had a built-in expiry that kills the owner's access after a certain time.

Anyone else found themselves in this position?

One of my GW's stopped being connected to Tesla the other day. So I called the support line and they helped me fix it. Was a reset in my case. So, call the PW support desk.

 

[jjrandorin]

I think the OP here can try a gateway reset. If they call Tesla Energy, the first thing they will say to them is "I cant see your gateway, lets get you connected to the internet".

As far as the question the OP asked, I have not heard about any firmware expiry, but it would not surprise me if something happens if the equipment isnt able to phone home for a period of time. Actually, Tesla energy might be able to answer that question if the OP calls the number for them in their country, and asks them about what happens if a powerwall cant call into tesla.

 

[CrazyRabbit]

Some while back, I got frustrated with the way firmware updates kept breaking things, so I blocked the Powerwall gateway's access to the Internet. I wasn't using the Ap to monitor it anyway.

And all has been good, until a couple of days ago (I've only just noticed). Access to the gateway through ethernet linked https has ceased, and the WiFi access point has disappeared.

However, the gateway can still be pinged, and it is still trying to access the Internet. I reset the gateway, but nothing has changed.

Since this cannot be due to an update, it leaves me wondering whether the firmware had a built-in expiry that kills the owner's access after a certain time.

Anyone else found themselves in this position?

go ahead and keep blocking the internet and see what happens to your warranty. perhaps you need to rethink your position.

 

[Sylvia Else]

go ahead and keep blocking the internet and see what happens to your warranty. perhaps you need to rethink your position.

If Tesla wants to try to invalidate my warranty on that basis, I'll see them before the consumer tribunal in NSW, Australia. They don't get to advertise a ten year warranty, and then attach new conditions to it after the event. That's not how contracts work.

 

[jjrandorin]

If Tesla wants to try to invalidate my warranty on that basis, I'll see them before the consumer tribunal in NSW, Australia. They don't get to advertise a ten year warranty, and then attach new conditions to it after the event. That's not how contracts work.

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/powerwall/powerwall_2_ac_warranty_us_1-4.pdf

(powerwall warranty document online)

Portion that is relevant to you, based on not connecting to the internet:

======================================

Based on this verbiage, it appears to me that you are "taking your chances", but of course thats up to you

 

[Sylvia Else]

Based on this verbiage, it appears to me that you are "taking your chances", but of course thats up to you

Yes, I was already aware of all that stuff, but there was no mention of such a requirement in the advertising of the 10 year warranty, and it's certainly not something I agreed to before the thing was installed.

I also doubt that Tesla wants to have a consumer tribunal look at the highly dubious deemed consent arising from connecting the Powerwall to the internet.

There is also the issue of the can of worms that is the required availability of spare parts and repair facilities in Australia, which is what gets opened if Tesla refused to honour their warranty.

 

[EVRider-FL]

Here in the US, you implicitly accept the warranty terms as disclosed, they don’t have to be advertised. This isn’t specific to Tesla.

 

[Sylvia Else]

Some while back, I got frustrated with the way firmware updates kept breaking things, so I blocked the Powerwall gateway's access to the Internet. I wasn't using the Ap to monitor it anyway.

And all has been good, until a couple of days ago (I've only just noticed). Access to the gateway through ethernet linked https has ceased, and the WiFi access point has disappeared.

However, the gateway can still be pinged, and it is still trying to access the Internet. I reset the gateway, but nothing has changed.

Since this cannot be due to an update, it leaves me wondering whether the firmware had a built-in expiry that kills the owner's access after a certain time.

Anyone else found themselves in this position?

While trying to diagnose this, I gave the gateway access to the internet, to see whether data would show up in the App. It didn't. What it did do, though was to grab a firmware update. However, it didn't install it immediately. That only happened some minutes after I'd provided fake network time protocol data to backdate by a year, which allowed the previous firmware to run normally.

The new firmware, 20.40.3 has added a feature by which the installer login to the gateway's web interface has to be accompanied by toggling the switch on the Powerwall (I realise this may have appeared in an earlier version that I never received).

However, obtaining the firmware update seems to be the only thing it has done. While it claims to be connected to Tesla, and traffic monitoring shows that it is successfully connecting, nothing is appearing in the App. Tesla say that they don't see any data from from it, and have escalated it to their diagnostic team.

On a different forum, someone else has indicated that they're seeing the same problem with a Powerwall that was isolated from the Internet for an extended period. The mind boggles as to what was done in Tesla's servers to achieve that.

Had I not allowed the thing access to the Internet, I could probably have rescued the situation be arranging for permanently fake NTP data, but it's too late now.

... pondering the design of an automatic switch toggler.

 

[power.saver]

While trying to diagnose this, I gave the gateway access to the internet, to see whether data would show up in the App. It didn't. What it did do, though was to grab a firmware update. However, it didn't install it immediately. That only happened some minutes after I'd provided fake network time protocol data to backdate by a year, which allowed the previous firmware to run normally.

The new firmware, 20.40.3 has added a feature by which the installer login to the gateway's web interface has to be accompanied by toggling the switch on the Powerwall (I realise this may have appeared in an earlier version that I never received).

However, obtaining the firmware update seems to be the only thing it has done. While it claims to be connected to Tesla, and traffic monitoring shows that it is successfully connecting, nothing is appearing in the App. Tesla say that they don't see any data from from it, and have escalated it to their diagnostic team.

On a different forum, someone else has indicated that they're seeing the same problem with a Powerwall that was isolated from the Internet for an extended period. The mind boggles as to what was done in Tesla's servers to achieve that.

Had I not allowed the thing access to the Internet, I could probably have rescued the situation be arranging for permanently fake NTP data, but it's too late now.

... pondering the design of an automatic switch toggler.

Is your NTP server back to current time?

 

[Sylvia Else]

Is your NTP server back to current time?

That's not how I did it, I interposed a program that modified the time returned by a real NTP server. It's no longer interposed.

 

[power.saver]

That's not how I did it, I interposed a program that modified the time returned by a real NTP server. It's no longer interposed.

Okay, clever. I was thinking if it was in the past, it might not update again.

The next significant update after 20.40.3 that I got (and still have) is 20.49.0, and it has a lot of security changes to the local access.

 

[scottysize]

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/powerwall/powerwall_2_ac_warranty_us_1-4.pdf

(powerwall warranty document online)

Portion that is relevant to you, based on not connecting to the internet:

======================================


View attachment 668974


Based on this verbiage, it appears to me that you are "taking your chances", but of course thats up to you

There you go. I was about to say the same thing. The PWs have to stay connected to the Internet to keep working.

 

[Redhill_qik]

There you go. I was about to say the same thing. The PWs have to stay connected to the Internet to keep working.

I was watching a post-apocalyptic series this weekend (Sweet Tooth) and one community has lights and electricity through solar with visible in house inverters (weird set design choice) and unseen batteries. This lead to a train of thought that ESS installers with passwords must have been worshipped as gods after the collapse.

However, if this tech needs the internet to operate then we are all doomed. PWs need an end-of-the-world mode.

 

[ThomasD]

So much for going off grid

 

[Sylvia Else]

I was watching a post-apocalyptic series this weekend (Sweet Tooth) and one community has lights and electricity through solar with visible in house inverters (weird set design choice) and unseen batteries. This lead to a train of thought that ESS installers with passwords must have been worshipped as gods after the collapse.

However, if this tech needs the internet to operate then we are all doomed. PWs need an end-of-the-world mode.

My Powerwall worked perfectly well without the internet for a year and a half. Even now, having made the mistake of letting it upgrade its firmware, I could continue to control it without internet access by building a device to operate the Powerwall rocker-switch automatically (design in progress), since it's only that that prevents me from logging in as installer when the reserve needs to be changed.

As things stand, we remain vulnerable to Tesla deliberately degrading our Powerwalls once they're out of warranty to encourage the purchase of new ones. That would probably be unlawful, but also difficult to prove. Tesla could also just withdraw access to the servers at the end of the warranty period, and they could get away with that legally, since there's nothing that guarantees access indefinitely. Powerwalls would continue to work at whatever their last settings were, but most owners would have no way to control them.

One might have thought that tech companies wouldn't engage in such practices, but sadly the evidence is to the contrary. Tesla have already been accused, credibly, of deliberately limiting the range of some Tesla vehicles, perhaps in an attempt to avoid warranty liability on the batteries.

Looks like the first Powerwall 2s come out of warranty in 2026. At that point, some knowledgable owners may be willing to start poking around in the gateway and reverse engineering the link between the gateway and the powerwall.

 

[power.saver]

My Powerwall worked perfectly well without the internet for a year and a half. Even now, having made the mistake of letting it upgrade its firmware, I could continue to control it without internet access by building a device to operate the Powerwall rocker-switch automatically (design in progress), since it's only that that prevents me from logging in as installer when the reserve needs to be changed.

As things stand, we remain vulnerable to Tesla deliberately degrading our Powerwalls once they're out of warranty to encourage the purchase of new ones. That would probably be unlawful, but also difficult to prove. Tesla could also just withdraw access to the servers at the end of the warranty period, and they could get away with that legally, since there's nothing that guarantees access indefinitely. Powerwalls would continue to work at whatever their last settings were, but most owners would have no way to control them.

One might have thought that tech companies wouldn't engage in such practices, but sadly the evidence is to the contrary. Tesla have already been accused, credibly, of deliberately limiting the range of some Tesla vehicles, perhaps in an attempt to avoid warranty liability on the batteries.

Looks like the first Powerwall 2s come out of warranty in 2026. At that point, some knowledgable owners may be willing to start poking around in the gateway and reverse engineering the link between the gateway and the powerwall.

I'm surprised you need to toggle the switch. I have that as an option, but with the correct installer password it's not necessary to do that. I'm able to log in as installer with just the password.

 

[Sylvia Else]

I'm surprised you need to toggle the switch. I have that as an option, but with the correct installer password it's not necessary to do that. I'm able to log in as installer with just the password.

I'm using api/login/Basic with

{"username":"installer","password":"shush-secret","force_sm_off":false}

And I always get

{"code":401,"error":"roles [Provider_Engineer] require physical access","message":"Login Error"}

until I toggle the switch. After I do that the resulting bearer-token seems to be valid for only an hour or so.

This is on firmware 20.40.3, or at least that what it claims it's running.