A smoke detector might have issues with anything with an IC engine in a garage.
FWIW, we don't have any detectors in our garage which houses 2 PWs and 1-2 Teslas.
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Powerwall In Garage [what are the rules around this?]
- Thread starter franksayshai
- Start date
FWIW, we don't have any detectors in our garage which houses 2 PWs and 1-2 Teslas.
Smoke detectors are mostly not rated for garages, though a garage with only EV's would avoid the main problem, of combustion products buildup.
I think it is a good safety practice and current California building code to have a heat detector in the garage.
Thank you both for the feedback. I’ll look into adding a heat detector, even though we don’t expect any combustion to be occurring in or near our garage. I haven’t heard of a heat detector before
.Thank you both for the feedback. I’ll look into adding a heat detector, even though we don’t expect any combustion to be occurring in or near our garage. I haven’t heard of a heat detector before
First Alert HD6135FB is the one we use around here. If you currently have a central type monitored system you will want something like a System Sensor 5600 series.
FWIW, I sarcastically mounted a HD6135FB 1 foot above my Powerwalls. The inspector that seemed to enjoy being a scrotum-buster said the detector would probably burn up too fast if there really was a fire to be of much use since I mounted it too close. But he didn't really care since Contra Costa doesn't require it.
First Alert doesn't seem to say "do not mount right on a powerwall you idiot" on their manual. But they do say to mount it 4 inches from the ceiling. It's almost like they knew I'd try to mount it on a Powerwall.
I think all these disconnects and sarcastic heat detector alarm caused him to miss my
weepy holes.@kairojya also, I see you are in Florida. Depending on the design of your home if the garage gets very hot the HD6135FB trips at 135F and the Heat Alarm might give false alarms where ambient temperature exceeds its rating.
There currently isn't another better option on the market however unless you have a central type system, since the System Sensors Heat Detector are rated to trigger at 194F for the high-temperature versions.
Unfortunately, the UL heat alarm standard does not include any provisions for a hot garage environment, so the HD6135FB is the next best thing.
Thanks for the follow up. I’ve yet to see the temp go above 100F in my garage so far according to my Model 3’s reported exterior temp and the display of my garage door opener’s button panel. Granted, I don’t spend much time in there monitoring it.
Here's the text of the new (or at least updated as of July 1, 2021) section of the California Residential Code, R327:
codes.iccsafe.org
I got there from this list of the current California Building Codes (where you need to open the 2019 tab):
Cheers, Wayne
2019 CALIFORNIA RESIDENTIAL CODE, TITLE 24, PART 2.5 WITH JULY 2021 SUPPLEMENT | ICC DIGITAL CODES
ICC Digital Codes is the largest provider of model codes, custom codes and standards used worldwide to construct safe, sustainable, affordable and resilient structures.
codes.iccsafe.org
I got there from this list of the current California Building Codes (where you need to open the 2019 tab):
Cheers, Wayne
Thanks....Here's the text of the new (or at least updated as of July 1, 2021) section of the California Residential Code, R327:
2019 CALIFORNIA RESIDENTIAL CODE, TITLE 24, PART 2.5 WITH JULY 2021 SUPPLEMENT | ICC DIGITAL CODES
ICC Digital Codes is the largest provider of model codes, custom codes and standards used worldwide to construct safe, sustainable, affordable and resilient structures.
I got there from this list of the current California Building Codes (where you need to open the 2019 tab):
Cheers, Wayne
The Powerwalls don't need to be installed outdoors but the hurdles to installing indoors can push an outdoor installation due to cost and complexity. I understand some installers are not even quoting interior installations.
I spent some time a little while back trying to sort a cost effective way to install System Sensor 5604 and found that it also needs a horn and power supply. The detector itself is fairly inexpensive (~$20) and the horn is a bit more (~ $40 - $80), but the power supply is quite pricey. If you go with the same company as the heat detector and horn (all Raytheon parent company), you are looking at something in the $600 range for the cheapest Fire-Lite. I don't have specific model info, but I was told by a fire equipment supplier that Altronix makes a power supply that may be around half the cost of the Fire-Lite as a less expensive but acceptable alternative. I also found some power supplies made by Schlage that are somewhere in the $100 - $200 range but I'm not sure if these are any good.
Considering these numbers plus labor and additional cost to pull the power and signal wires, it looks like somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,000 - $1,500 to satisfy jurisdictions who are enforcing the heat detector rules and not allowing First Alert HD6135FB.
Does anyone on the thread have experience installing System Sensor 5604? If so, advice is appreciated. It looks like Cupertino and jurisdictions under Santa Clara County Fire Protection District control insist on this as the only viable option without automatic fire sprinklers.
Considering these numbers plus labor and additional cost to pull the power and signal wires, it looks like somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,000 - $1,500 to satisfy jurisdictions who are enforcing the heat detector rules and not allowing First Alert HD6135FB.
Does anyone on the thread have experience installing System Sensor 5604? If so, advice is appreciated. It looks like Cupertino and jurisdictions under Santa Clara County Fire Protection District control insist on this as the only viable option without automatic fire sprinklers.
I'm a bit unclear on the current status of this issue. It appears the current version of CRC R327.7 just requires a smoke detector or heat alarm.
So what's wrong with the First Alert HD6135FB? Its manual says not to install where the temperature exceeds 115F, does that really happen at the ceiling level in an attached garage in our climate? If so, the manual allows installing on a wall between 4" and 12" from the ceiling, would the temperature still exceed 115F 12" down from the ceiling?
Or have Cupertino and the Santa Clara County Fire Protection District formally adopted requirements in excess of the state code?
Thanks,
Wayne
Cal Fire published a bulletin back in July 2021 that said no current heat alarms are listed for installation in unconditioned spaces where temperature can exceed 100 degrees. I don't know exactly what the First Alert listing literature says, but the spec sheet I am looking indicates that the unit is capable of operating between 40F and 100F. Attached is the Cal Fire Bulletin as well as the spec sheet and install manual for the First Alert heat alarm for reference. Looking over the install manual, it looks like a fine application to me, but certain plan checkers take issue with it. If anyone knows of recent installs in Cupertino and SCCFPD where it was allowed, I would love to hear about it.
Another issue may be rate of rise where temperature increase of 15 degrees in 1 minute will trigger the alarm. This may be an issue on a hot day with a cool garage when the door opens, rapidly raising the inside temperature. This is why the tech from System Sensor recommended the 194 degree fixed temperature heat detector rather than rate of rise model.
Saving the world isn't easy... Especially in the South Bay.
Another issue may be rate of rise where temperature increase of 15 degrees in 1 minute will trigger the alarm. This may be an issue on a hot day with a cool garage when the door opens, rapidly raising the inside temperature. This is why the tech from System Sensor recommended the 194 degree fixed temperature heat detector rather than rate of rise model.
Saving the world isn't easy... Especially in the South Bay.
If you dig into the UL listing for heat alarms, there is no testing for unconditioned spaces, nor for temperatures greater than about 135F. Those sticky jurisdictions are basing their disapproval on a technicality (heat alarm is not suitable for a garage environment) even when the OSFM guidelines appear to guide differently. Those AHJ are saying its not appropriate due to the possible effects of humidity and condensation that can occur in unconditioned spaces. I think the undertone is to keep as many of these ESS outside homes as possible.
In parts of California, internal temperature sensors in the Powerwalls themselves registered air temperatures in the garage over 150 F. Who knows how hot one of those garages would be up 8' in the air where the heat rises. Norcal is not quite as hot generally.
As far as the practical use of the 5604, which alarm horn did you pair it with? When I was looking, there was both a 120V and a 12V option, but I didn't follow through.
I was not aware of the requirement for a separate power supply, but then again I am not an alarm guy. We typically turn this installation over to the alarm specialist who is already responsible for the rest of the system.
In parts of California, internal temperature sensors in the Powerwalls themselves registered air temperatures in the garage over 150 F. Who knows how hot one of those garages would be up 8' in the air where the heat rises. Norcal is not quite as hot generally.
As far as the practical use of the 5604, which alarm horn did you pair it with? When I was looking, there was both a 120V and a 12V option, but I didn't follow through.
I was not aware of the requirement for a separate power supply, but then again I am not an alarm guy. We typically turn this installation over to the alarm specialist who is already responsible for the rest of the system.
And the First Alert HD6135FB manual says it is suitable for use in garage, and says not to install it where the temperature exceeds 115F. So it seems to me that if you establish that the location were you want to put it does not exceed 115F (e.g. via a temperature logger), those jurisdictions are taking an indefensible position (which they are relying on not having to defend, since challenging them is costly).
Surely that's not ambient air temperature, but internal temperature within the Powerwall, because it's a source of heat.
What would it cost to install a small through the wall A/C unit to make the garage into a semi-conditioned space?
Cheers, Wayne
I think that you are correct regarding the AHJ pushback, it is costly, and I have pushed a good bit.
A window-mounted AC would likely satisfy the requirement of a conditioned space.
The temperature that was taken were by Tesla and I understood it to be the intake air temperature. So-cal gets baking hot and an uninsulated garage gets very hot under these conditions.
Oh those of you earned in the ways of the arcane AHJ raising this issue:
Isn't the requirement for a conditioned space that it either be heated or be cooled? Is there some requirement of X degrees of difference? e.g. when would an attic fan qualify? On a thermostat? A thermostat that exploited an outside/inside temperature difference? (It uses electricity to cool a space, thereby conditioning the space inside the thermal envelope.)
Enquiring minds would love to know...
All the best,
BG
Isn't the requirement for a conditioned space that it either be heated or be cooled? Is there some requirement of X degrees of difference? e.g. when would an attic fan qualify? On a thermostat? A thermostat that exploited an outside/inside temperature difference? (It uses electricity to cool a space, thereby conditioning the space inside the thermal envelope.)
Enquiring minds would love to know...
All the best,
BG
When I asked I was told that the high temperature is an issue, and so at least 5 but per sqft was needed of cooling capacity to consider it conditioned.
Looking at BTU ratings, that's pretty minor and could use a pretty small 120VAC unit. I would not count on SCC fire approval until the permit was accepted though.
