PowerWall installation mess: Need advice on how to get it resolved

[valleydude]

Hi All,

Tesla installed 2xPW2 and 1 Gateway, no solar at home on 04/30/2021.
The installation is screwed up in the sense, it is not backing up any of the loads that I consider essential.

Background of my installation:

1) All the loads in the house are split between two panels:
- a main panel (P1) outside the house
- a sub-panel (P2) inside the garage
2) Main panel (P1) has heavy loads and some other lighter loads such as:
- Air conditioners (first and second floor)
- Owen
- Kids bedroom above the garage
- Water heater (just the starter), it is a tankless gas water heater
- A couple of other breakers for lights in the garage
3) Sub panel (P2) in the garage has the breaker for all the other loads in the house
4) The main panel P1 has two service disconnect switches, one for the bus bar in P1 and one for the sub-panel P2

The Tesla guys without consulting me decided that they want to backup the loads on the main panel P1, excluding the ACs.
Those loads they relocated from P1 into another sub-panel that they installed next to the Gateway.
The decided on their own that there is no need to backup the loads on P2, which has all the essential loads in the house.

After two months of back and forth them several different service agents, I was finally able to talk to the original Project Advisor
on my project. She had this to say to me:

"
I heard back from our team with the following:

The issue is the split bus panel and we can only back up one size of the system in this case was the size with the loads mention of lights and the oven. So if we want to back up the other size customer needs to add more PWs to the other subpanel.

It appears we had to choose which size to load based on the what was needed to back up. It appears the only option is to keep the system as is. If you did want to purchase another PW, it would most likely need to be in 2022 as we aren’t offering stand alone Powerwall orders at this time.
"

I spoke to several neighbors, none of them had this problem. I just can't understand how adding an extra PW2 would solve the problem.
All they need to do is to remove the Oven from the backup power center and connect P2 to the gateway.

Please advice how to get this problem resolved. I've not success in getting Tesla to come back address the issues I raised.

 

[jjrandorin]

I am sorry to hear this, but not sure what advice you are looking for. We do not have any escalation path with tesla energy here at TMC, or in this subforum. You have already escalated this within tesla, they gave you an answer you are not comfortable with. Perhaps you should contact an attorney to see if you have any options there?

 

[jboy210]

It sounds like adding another powerwall would let the system backup all loads. Each powerwall adds 5 kWh continuous capacity and 7 kWh surge capacity.

I am not an electrician, so don't know what, if any, assumption the code and permitting agencies require electricians to make about the usage of ovens, A/Cs, etc. when doing their calculations.

 

[Southpasfan]

We have electricians on here who will answer.

How did it get all the way to installation without you understanding what they were backing up? The loads to be backed up are in a three-line diagram which has to be complied with in order to get a permit/inspection.

For your sake I hope they deviated from it so that they would have to come out and re-do it.

If, on the other hand, they sent you the three line diagrams and you didn't fully understand them, it will be uglier. Sheesh.

 

[valleydude]

I am sorry to hear this, but not sure what advice you are looking for. We do not have any escalation path with tesla energy here at TMC, or in this subforum. You have already escalated this within tesla, they gave you an answer you are not comfortable with. Perhaps you should contact an attorney to see if you have any options there?

Thanks. I understand there is no escalation pathway available. I don't want to go the attorney route - it is too much of mental stress for me and I can't handle that.

From their load calculations, it appears that since they included the Owen in the load to be backed up, the power budget is 15312VA, 63A. The load assumed for the Owen is 9600VA. If they were to exclude the Owen also, hook up the inside panel to the backup load center, it would solve my problem. They don't seem to want to do that and I don't know why.

I was wondering if consulting with a PowerWall certified electrician and trying to get it resolved on my own is a possible solution.

 

[valleydude]

We have electricians on here who will answer.

How did it get all the way to installation without you understanding what they were backing up? The loads to be backed up are in a three-line diagram which has to be complied with in order to get a permit/inspection.

For your sake I hope they deviated from it so that they would have to come out and re-do it.

If, on the other hand, they sent you the three line diagrams and you didn't fully understand them, it will be uglier. Sheesh.

The screen shot I included is a three line diagram. It does not show which loads are getting backed up and which loads are getting relocated to the back up load center. Do they have any other document where they might have detailed this?

I know, I screwed up in the sense, that I rushed it and signed the documents without asking details questions about the loads getting backed up.

But, I stopped the installation, when they came to my home the first time on 04/16/21 and informed me which loads they were planning on getting backed up.

The installers called their design hotline and told me that they can backup all the loads, except the ACs, which was fine with me. By the time they got their answers, it was too late for them start the installation and they left.

They came back on 04/30 and I confirmed with them before they started the install, if all the loads other than the ACs would be backed up and they answered yes. After they install, I asked the same question again and they said yes. I took their word on the face value.

We tested the system by turning off the grid disconnect and checking the lights and fridge in the garage were powered up and they were. I never went into the house and tested the other loads

 

[jjrandorin]

The screen shot I included is a three line diagram. It does not show which loads are getting backed up and which loads are getting relocated to the back up load center. Do they have any other document where they might have detailed this?

I know, I screwed up in the sense, that I rushed it and signed the documents without asking details questions about the loads getting backed up.

But, I stopped the installation, when they came to my home the first time on 04/16/21 and informed me which loads they were planning on getting backed up.

The installers called their design hotline and told me that they can backup all the loads, except the ACs, which was fine with me. By the time they got their answers, it was too late for them start the installation and they left.

They came back on 04/30 and I confirmed with them before they started the install, if all the loads other than the ACs would be backed up and they answered yes. After they install, I asked the same question again and they said yes. I took their word on the face value.

We tested the system by turning off the grid disconnect and checking the lights and fridge in the garage were powered up and they were. I never went into the house and tested the other loads

Wow... that is some interesting additional detail. It sounds like you asked the question directly, and were given a direct answer of which loads were to be backed up, and that answer contradicted what was done. thats horrible.

maybe @wwhitney or @Vines could provide some technical information about a path forward from a technical perspective? Tagging them here in hopes they see it and take a look when they get a chance.

 

[gpez]

I was wondering if consulting with a PowerWall certified electrician and trying to get it resolved on my own is a possible solution.

I'm probably jumping the gun here but this option to get qualified 3rd party electrician out to evaluate your options and quote you on a fix would be a step I'd take.

From there you could decide to take the fix proposal back to Tesla and continue to fight them to fix it for you, sever ties with Tesla and pay for the fix yourself, or pay for the fix then go after Tesla to make you whole. The latter could be resolved easily if they agree (doubtful given Tesla's demonstrated customer service) or could require court action, but possibly small claims if the fix cost is under the small claims limit (or maybe you agree to be made whole for the small claims limit and agree to not collect on the rest).

I've heard there is an arbitration clause in your installation agreement, though I did not go through Tesla for my installation so I don't know what that entails or if that's correct but if true could hamper your ability to collect.

 

[valleydude]

I'm probably jumping the gun here but this option to get qualified 3rd party electrician out to evaluate your options and quote you on a fix would be a step I'd take.

From there you could decide to take the fix proposal back to Tesla and continue to fight them to fix it for you, sever ties with Tesla and pay for the fix yourself, or pay for the fix then go after Tesla to make you whole. The latter could be resolved easily if they agree (doubtful given Tesla's demonstrated customer service) or could require court action, but possibly small claims if the fix cost is under the small claims limit (or maybe you agree to be made whole for the small claims limit and agree to not collect on the rest).

I've heard there is an arbitration clause in your installation agreement, though I did not go through Tesla for my installation so I don't know what that entails or if that's correct but if true could hamper your ability to collect.

Thanks for the suggestions. There is an arbitration clause in the agreement. I had 60 days to sign a document to say I decline to accept the arbitration clause and I forgot to do it in time. Anyways, I want to avoid litigation at all costs.
I don't have the stomach for it .

I am considering hiring a qualified electrician look at it and give me possible options.

 

[wwhitney]

What is the make and model number of the 300A main service panel?

Is the following a correct categorization of all your present loads:

A) Loads on the 100A breaker in the main service panelb (which I believe supplies the indoor panel P2), which should be backed up but are not.
B) Loads that were in the 200A section of the main (outdoor) panel) and remain there, all of which should not be backed up.
C) Loads that were in 200A section of the main (outdoor) but are now moved to the new panel labeled (V) in the 3 line diagram, which is protected by a 100A breaker, and which are currently backed up and are supposed to be backed up.

If so, it should be possible to get the loads (A) backed up while leaving the loads (B) not backed up, via some reconfiguration and perhaps yet another intermediate panel. Separate load calcs for (A), (B), and (C) would be required. I will comment further when you have a chance to respond to the above (OK to omit the load calcs if you don't have them on hand.)

Cheers, Wayne

 

[valleydude]

What is the make and model number of the 300A main service panel?

Is the following a correct categorization of all your present loads:

A) Loads on the 100A breaker in the main service panelb (which I believe supplies the indoor panel P2), which should be backed up but are not.
B) Loads that were in the 200A section of the main (outdoor) panel) and remain there, all of which should not be backed up.
C) Loads that were in 200A section of the main (outdoor) but are now moved to the new panel labeled (V) in the 3 line diagram, which is protected by a 100A breaker, and which are currently backed up and are supposed to be backed up.

If so, it should be possible to get the loads (A) backed up while leaving the loads (B) not backed up, via some reconfiguration and perhaps yet another intermediate panel. Separate load calcs for (A), (B), and (C) would be required. I will comment further when you have a chance to respond to the above (OK to omit the load calcs if you don't have them on hand.)

Cheers, Wayne

Thanks, Wayne. I think you got what I'm trying to do.

Here are the answers to your questions:

The make of the 300A panel is: Square D, Catalog Number: SU3040D300FB, Series M01.
Please see the attached pictures for additional information required, if any.

A) Correct.

B) Partly correct. There were a couple of heavy loads on the outdoor panel, which include the ACs, the Oven, and the EV Charger. And, there were a few lighter loads such as the kids bedrooms above the garage, the outlet powering the Enphase Envoy Gateway etc. Except for the ACs and the EV charger, I wanted to backup everything on the 200A section. I realize that the Oven present a 9600VA load, when both units are turned on. But, I don't forsee using it during a power outage. But, it will be useful to be able to use one during the day time, due to the timeshifting capability. BTW, when I turned on one of the ovens yesterday, it shows as 4kw load in the Tesla app, powered by the PowerWall.

C) Correct. All except the ACs are moved to a new panel that Tesla installed.

 

[tomuo]

Going back to the basic problem here, the installers made an incorrect assumption about which loads to move to the backed-up panel (because the load calculation included your Oven explicitly), and testing on the day of installation didn't uncover that.

I had a similar but much more minor version of this, the circuit that powers my Fridge was left behind on the main panel un backed-up.
I communicated that to the installer (not Tesla), and they fixed it when they were coming out anyway for a city inspection.

So if you just ask for the Oven to be moved back to the main panel, and your other loads to be brought to the backed up panel, it shouldn't be flying against anything that was in the plan.

 

[valleydude]

Going back to the basic problem here, the installers made an incorrect assumption about which loads to move to the backed-up panel (because the load calculation included your Oven explicitly), and testing on the day of installation didn't uncover that.

I had a similar but much more minor version of this, the circuit that powers my Fridge was left behind on the main panel un backed-up.
I communicated that to the installer (not Tesla), and they fixed it when they were coming out anyway for a city inspection.

So if you just ask for the Oven to be moved back to the main panel, and your other loads to be brought to the backed up panel, it shouldn't be flying against anything that was in the plan.

Thanks. That is what I'm going to ask, if that would solve the problem.

 

[wwhitney]

As to group (B) vs group (C), it sounds like one or more circuits that should have been moved from the outdoor panel to the new backup panel didn't get moved (and that nothing that got moved should have stayed in group (B)). I'll assume that's a separate problem that is easily resolved by moving those circuits from (B) to (C), and just address the main problem that an entire panel (group (A)) is not backed up.

I take it the photos of the "Patch Panel" are the before photos of your outdoor panel. Some after photos of the outdoor panel, with all the breakers including the 100A and 200A breakers, would be helpful.

Also, a quick comment: unless your jurisdiction allows the early use of 2020 NEC 705.13 on Power Control Systems (which won't be in force in CA until 1/1/2023, but would be reasonable to allow early), your current configuration violates the NEC unless the sum of the breakers in your outdoor panel distribution section (ignoring the 100A and 200A main breakers is no more than 200A. That counts the 90A breaker shown on the 3 line diagram as supplying the Backup Gateway, and is a simple count if all the breakers are double pole; single pole breakers are more complicated to properly count for this rule, but you can just count half of each handle rating for an approximate answer.

Backing up panel (A) will require some reconfiguration. The solution I find simplest would require upsizing various conductors and conduits that Tesla installed, but doesn't require an additional panel (there are other ways to do it that an installer might find easier, possibly involving an additional panel but less upsizing of existing feeders). It would be most easily explained via a single line diagram, but here's a text description:

(1) Change the 100A breaker in the outdoor panel to a 200A breaker, disconnecting the feeder to the garage panel. [This gives you (2) 200A main breakers supplied by a 300A bus, which is allowed for services when the total load calculation is 300A or under, but might give pause to the uninformed.]
(2) Provide a 200A feeder from that new 200A breaker to the Backup Gateway. [And if the Backup Gateway has the internal 100A main breaker shown the 3 line diagram, remove it or change it to 200A.]
(3) Provide a 200A feeder from the Backup Gateway load side lugs to the recently installed Backup Panel; change that panel to have a 200A main breaker (it is supposed to have a 200A bus already)
(4) Add a 100A breaker in the recently installed Backup Panel (or just repurpose the current backfed 100A main breaker); run a 100A feeder from that breaker back to outdoor panel to splice to the feeder to the garage panel to refeed it (or directly to the garage panel if that is just as easy or better).

This all works if the load calcs for groups A, B, C satisfy A+C <= 200A ; B <= 200A ; A+B+C <= 300A. Also, if B <= 100A, then it would be possible to swap the 100A and 200A main breakers within the outdoor panel, rather than get a new 200A main breaker for that panel, assuming that the factory installed 200A main breaker is field replaceable (probably, but requires verifying). The only real advantage to that is then you have the 300A bus supplying only 300A of breakers and aren't relying on a load calculation to protect the 300A bus (not sure if that is a meaningful improvement).

Cheers, Wayne

 

[h2ofun]

As to group (B) vs group (C), it sounds like one or more circuits that should have been moved from the outdoor panel to the new backup panel didn't get moved (and that nothing that got moved should have stayed in group (B)). I'll assume that's a separate problem that is easily resolved by moving those circuits from (B) to (C), and just address the main problem that an entire panel (group (A)) is not backed up.

I take it the photos of the "Patch Panel" are the before photos of your outdoor panel. Some after photos of the outdoor panel, with all the breakers including the 100A and 200A breakers, would be helpful.

Also, a quick comment: unless your jurisdiction allows the early use of 2020 NEC 705.13 on Power Control Systems (which won't be in force in CA until 1/1/2023, but would be reasonable to allow early), your current configuration violates the NEC unless the sum of the breakers in your outdoor panel distribution section (ignoring the 100A and 200A main breakers is no more than 200A. That counts the 90A breaker shown on the 3 line diagram as supplying the Backup Gateway, and is a simple count if all the breakers are double pole; single pole breakers are more complicated to properly count for this rule, but you can just count half of each handle rating for an approximate answer.

Backing up panel (A) will require some reconfiguration. The solution I find simplest would require upsizing various conductors and conduits that Tesla installed, but doesn't require an additional panel (there are other ways to do it that an installer might find easier, possibly involving an additional panel but less upsizing of existing feeders). It would be most easily explained via a single line diagram, but here's a text description:

(1) Change the 100A breaker in the outdoor panel to a 200A breaker, disconnecting the feeder to the garage panel. [This gives you (2) 200A main breakers supplied by a 300A bus, which is allowed for services when the total load calculation is 300A or under, but might give pause to the uninformed.]
(2) Provide a 200A feeder from that new 200A breaker to the Backup Gateway. [And if the Backup Gateway has the internal 100A main breaker shown the 3 line diagram, remove it or change it to 200A.]
(3) Provide a 200A feeder from the Backup Gateway load side lugs to the recently installed Backup Panel; change that panel to have a 200A main breaker (it is supposed to have a 200A bus already)
(4) Add a 100A breaker in the recently installed Backup Panel (or just repurpose the current backfed 100A main breaker); run a 100A feeder from that breaker back to outdoor panel to splice to the feeder to the garage panel to refeed it (or directly to the garage panel if that is just as easy or better).

This all works if the load calcs for groups A, B, C satisfy A+C <= 200A ; B <= 200A ; A+B+C <= 300A. Also, if B <= 100A, then it would be possible to swap the 100A and 200A main breakers within the outdoor panel, rather than get a new 200A main breaker for that panel, assuming that the factory installed 200A main breaker is field replaceable (probably, but requires verifying). The only real advantage to that is then you have the 300A bus supplying only 300A of breakers and aren't relying on a load calculation to protect the 300A bus (not sure if that is a meaningful improvement).

Cheers, Wayne

Man, I am SO glad from day 1 with my generator and then batteries it was always 100% whole house! No moving circuits around! I am not dumb enough to try and use an oven during a power outage!! Let alone the dryer!!

 

[aesculus]

Man, I am SO glad from day 1 with my generator and then batteries it was always 100% whole house! No moving circuits around! I am not dumb enough to try and use an oven during a power outage!! Let alone the dryer!!

Actually we have now started some drying of clothes during partial peak when the batteries are full. The load is less than our solar output so it's a wash. Ideally we would do this during weekend off peak but some days you just have to wash something.

If my dryer was not backed up then if we were off grid we could not use the dryer in the same scenario and the solar inverters would be shut down at 100% charge. So my goal now would be to drain the PW enough where we have full charge capability and then use the dryer. The excess would go back to the PWs to charge them. We would just monitor the PW state and make sure we stopped large loads with enough time to get the batteries fully charged for the overnight.

 

[holeydonut]

Man, I am SO glad from day 1 with my generator and then batteries it was always 100% whole house! No moving circuits around! I am not dumb enough to try and use an oven during a power outage!! Let alone the dryer!!

Some people aren't getting 5 free batteries man... these things are expensive as hell. Sometimes you can only get 2 of these cool batteries unless someone like @Vines comes out of left field to explain the large-scale incentive and you get really lucky.

Every installer I spoke with when I was doing 1 or 2 Powerwalls made me itemize a list of the things I was backing up with the nameplate ratings so they could do a NEC load calc... I'm really surprised valleydude went all the way through to the end of this 2x battery project without some clearly itemized list of backup and non-backup. But now that he's here, I do hope Tesla makes it right for him.

 

[h2ofun]

Some people aren't getting 5 free batteries man... these things are expensive as hell. Sometimes you can only get 2 of these cool batteries unless someone like @Vines comes out of left field to explain the large-scale incentive and you get really lucky.

Every installer I spoke with when I was doing 1 or 2 Powerwalls made me itemize a list of the things I was backing up with the nameplate ratings so they could do a NEC load calc... I'm really surprised valleydude went all the way through to the end of this 2x battery project without some clearly itemized list of backup and non-backup. But now that he's here, I do hope Tesla makes it right for him.

This is why I put in a whole house generator. Was, for me, the best bang for the buck. I could run the entire house with no changes to my panels. And yep, without SGIP, I NEVER EVER would have considered batteries. Too much hassle compared to my generator. Now, having lots of PV is, IMO, way more cost effective, at the moment with NEM2. But, if NEM3 changes things, ...

 

[valleydude]

As to group (B) vs group (C), it sounds like one or more circuits that should have been moved from the outdoor panel to the new backup panel didn't get moved (and that nothing that got moved should have stayed in group (B)). I'll assume that's a separate problem that is easily resolved by moving those circuits from (B) to (C), and just address the main problem that an entire panel (group (A)) is not backed up.

I take it the photos of the "Patch Panel" are the before photos of your outdoor panel. Some after photos of the outdoor panel, with all the breakers including the 100A and 200A breakers, would be helpful.

Also, a quick comment: unless your jurisdiction allows the early use of 2020 NEC 705.13 on Power Control Systems (which won't be in force in CA until 1/1/2023, but would be reasonable to allow early), your current configuration violates the NEC unless the sum of the breakers in your outdoor panel distribution section (ignoring the 100A and 200A main breakers is no more than 200A. That counts the 90A breaker shown on the 3 line diagram as supplying the Backup Gateway, and is a simple count if all the breakers are double pole; single pole breakers are more complicated to properly count for this rule, but you can just count half of each handle rating for an approximate answer.

Backing up panel (A) will require some reconfiguration. The solution I find simplest would require upsizing various conductors and conduits that Tesla installed, but doesn't require an additional panel (there are other ways to do it that an installer might find easier, possibly involving an additional panel but less upsizing of existing feeders). It would be most easily explained via a single line diagram, but here's a text description:

(1) Change the 100A breaker in the outdoor panel to a 200A breaker, disconnecting the feeder to the garage panel. [This gives you (2) 200A main breakers supplied by a 300A bus, which is allowed for services when the total load calculation is 300A or under, but might give pause to the uninformed.]
(2) Provide a 200A feeder from that new 200A breaker to the Backup Gateway. [And if the Backup Gateway has the internal 100A main breaker shown the 3 line diagram, remove it or change it to 200A.]
(3) Provide a 200A feeder from the Backup Gateway load side lugs to the recently installed Backup Panel; change that panel to have a 200A main breaker (it is supposed to have a 200A bus already)
(4) Add a 100A breaker in the recently installed Backup Panel (or just repurpose the current backfed 100A main breaker); run a 100A feeder from that breaker back to outdoor panel to splice to the feeder to the garage panel to refeed it (or directly to the garage panel if that is just as easy or better).

This all works if the load calcs for groups A, B, C satisfy A+C <= 200A ; B <= 200A ; A+B+C <= 300A. Also, if B <= 100A, then it would be possible to swap the 100A and 200A main breakers within the outdoor panel, rather than get a new 200A main breaker for that panel, assuming that the factory installed 200A main breaker is field replaceable (probably, but requires verifying). The only real advantage to that is then you have the 300A bus supplying only 300A of breakers and aren't relying on a load calculation to protect the 300A bus (not sure if that is a meaningful improvement).

Cheers, Wayne

Thanks a ton for the detailed info on how to fix this, Wayne. I need need time to digest the info you have provided.
Meanwhile, please see the attached pics of the panel outside the house after the install.

BTW, I live in San Ramon, CA. So, I don't know if they allow early adoption of 2020 NEC 705.13.

 

[wwhitney]

Thanks for the pictures. Per the markings on the dead front, the only "non-spare" breakers are a 90A for the A/C, a 90A for the GW, and a 40A for the EVSE. So two conclusions:

(1) Per the labeling, everything in the outdoor panel that you wanted backed up has been moved out to the newly installed Backup Panel. So if you believe otherwise, either (a) Tesla has mislabeled the dead front, and one of those breakers marked spare is still feeding a circuit or (b) the circuit that you are expecting to be currently backed up (because it had been in the main panel), but you find it isn't, you are mistaken and it actually originates in the garage panel. You can easily distinguish between the two possibilities by turning off all the "spare" breakers (right now the group at the upper left is off, but the two spares on the upper right are on, as are the spares at the bottom). If some circuit gets shut off, you know the issue is (a); but if nothing changes, then the issue is (b).

(2) The above breakers total 220A, so Tesla has left you with a technical code violation. It's not actually a safety rule, as the NEC "sum of all breakers rule" is a bit stricter than physics requires. But it may be useful ammunition for negotiating with Tesla to get someone back to fix the mess they left.

Oh, and those stickers at the bottom that say "Solar Breaker Do Not Relocate," but the breakers also say "Spare" on the Dead Front, those stickers are no longer accurate (assuming Tesla moved the solar to the internal panelboard in the Gateway as it was supposed to). So you can remove those or cross them out.

Cheers, Wayne