Powerwall Progress in Canada>

[cwave1]

I just received this today.

	Thank you for your interest in the Tesla Powerwall. As a Tesla vehicle owner, your needs are of particular importance to us. In order to determine the best path forward for you, we ask that you take the following survey. Your feedback will enable us to best approach the specific needs of your home.
	Take Survey

NOTE: Sorry - the email from Tesla (above) didn't paste very well.

I completed the survey which was very detailed covering my goals for the Powerwall, address of installation, details about my solar setup, and copies of my latest utility bills.

They also asked for my preference for time to be contacted by phone to take the next steps.

The survey auto-responded with an email containing a summary of my survey input.

Hopefully this means they are starting to move forward with production and installations soon.

 

[phigment]

Can you post the survey questions? I'm curious if they will use this to determine what's new in Powerwall V2.

I think it would be pretty cool if they could add a DC output feature for fast charging.

 

[cwave1]

The survey won't let me enter again since I've already completed it but here is the response email that contains most of it.

[

	Thanks for completing our survey, Don. With the data you've provided, we'll be able to identify the most efficient Powerwall installation process for your needs. We'll be back in touch in the coming weeks to further discuss your installation over the phone. If you have a need to reach out before then, please don't hesitate to email us at[email protected]. Thanks Again, Tesla Energy

NOTE: Sorry for the formatting below but I couldn't get the forum to show what I pasted from the email when using rich text.

Response Summary

How important are the following capabilities to you?
Consuming my own solar energy Maybe
Reduced dependence on my utility Definitely
Backup power in case of an outage Definitely
Saving money on my utility bill Definitely

Call preference time: 6:00PM - 8:00PM

Installation Location
In which country would you like to install Powerwall? Canada
Where will your Powerwall be installed? XXXXXXXX, Mississauga, Ontario, XXXXXXX
Do you own this property? Yes

Solar Information
Do you currently have solar PV? Yes
Please choose the brand of your solar inverter: Other
Please enter the brand of your solar inverter: Samil Solar River
Please complete the following form concerning your solar array. 10, Canadian Solar, 11/2015, Paid 4 Power Solar, 1
Do you own or lease your solar PV system? Own

Utility Information
From which company do you currently purchase electricity? Enersource Hydro Mississauga​

Under the solar questions they ask the size of the solar array (10) and the size of the inverter (1).

 

[phigment]

Cool, thanks. (you may want to remove your address from the posting)

 

[wayner]

Not to sidetrack, but what is the purpose of getting a Powerwall given the MicroFIT program (that I am assuming that you are on). Is it for backup power?

And assuming that you are on MicroFIT - are you allowed to have a battery when you are on MicroFIT?

Edit - Here is a good article talking about storage and solar. It isn't really applicable to Ontario yet but it will be as we move to net metering, plus most electricity distribution in Ontario is owned by the provincial or municipal governments.

But here is a quote regarding storage and this holds even more for people on the Ontario MicroFIT program where you get paid a WAY above market rate for the clean energy that you produce:

A solar customer who's getting the full retail rate for her surplus power has no financial incentive to store any of her energy. When she sells it, she gets the retail rate; when she buys power, she pays the retail rate. She has no reason to prefer her self-generated electricity to the utility's. It's all worth the same.

 

[cwave1]

I think there are a few reasons.

1. You can still benefit from the difference in the TOU rates by charging from the grid at night and using it during the day. Obviously this has nothing to do with the solar setup.
2. Backup for the house.
3. My theory is that electricity prices will increase over my microFIT term so at some point it will likely make sense to use some or all of my solar produced power vs. selling it back to the government.

I'm not yet sure what the physical setup options are but my goal would be for me to be able to choose how much solar I sell and how much I use so I can optimize the above benefits. I guess this means that the Powerwall would need to be connected to both the grid and the solar setup.

I'm still exploring how all of this might work and won't decide whether to proceed until I have many more answers than questions.

 

[wayner]

1. You can still benefit from the difference in the TOU rates by charging from the grid at night and using it during the day. Obviously this has nothing to do with the solar setup.

I did the math on this and it doesn't really work at the current peak vs off-peak differential of $0.092 per kWh - I think the payback was something like 30 years (there is a thread in this forum from when the Powerwall was announced several months ago - and that was when the C$ was way stronger). Assuming that every day you could store 7kWh then you would be saving 7x$.092=$0.644 per day or $3.22 per week or $167 per year.

When it comes to backup the question is how many batteries will you need for your house if you want to cover for extended blackouts. It isn't clear that batteries make sense vs a generator if a generator is an option unless battery prices come way down. And Tesla is selling two types of batteries - you would want the 7KWh daily cycle for use number 1 and the 10kWh weekly cycle for use number 2.

And I am also pretty sure that you aren't allowed to have a MicroFIT system connected to a battery - see Appendix D-1 of the current MicroFIT contract. But I guess you could connect the "grid" side of your electrical system to the Powerwall and not the solar side. Or if rates go up above your MicroFIT rate you could opt out of MicroFIT altogether.

What is your MicroFIT rate? Mine is the 2015 rate of $0.384 vs the current all-in Toronto Hydro peak rate of around $0.23. So I still need a significant increase in the peak rate to want to opt out of MicroFIT and the peak rate doesn't apply on weekends so I need the peak rate to be well above my MicroFIT rate of $0.384 to want to opt out - probably about $0.55/kWh.

 

[Zapped]

Good to see some progress on the Powerwall in Canada.

I'm interested in using the Powerwall for peak shaving at my commercial business. We have a 16kW Sun Country public charging station which spikes our peak demand charge if there is no output from our 54kW solar system.

Also considering upgrading our 30 year old boiler system to a CHP ( combined heat power ) unit.
Anyone have experience with CHP in Canada ?. I understand it's quite common in Europe.

 

[int32_t]

I think there are a few reasons.

1. You can still benefit from the difference in the TOU rates by charging from the grid at night and using it during the day. Obviously this has nothing to do with the solar setup.
2. Backup for the house.
3. My theory is that electricity prices will increase over my microFIT term so at some point it will likely make sense to use some or all of my solar produced power vs. selling it back to the government.

As far as I know, most on-grid solar PV systems are designed to shut down if there is a power outage. That means your neighbour, who doesn't have solar, won't have electricity. Oddly, that also means that you, with solar, also won't have electricity. You might not be able to use a Powerwall as you expect in this case. You would need a special shutoff system that would isolate your house from the rest of the electrical grid during an outage.

 

[AC1K]

As far as I know, most on-grid solar PV systems are designed to shut down if there is a power outage. That means your neighbour, who doesn't have solar, won't have electricity. Oddly, that also means that you, with solar, also won't have electricity. You might not be able to use a Powerwall as you expect in this case. You would need a special shutoff system that would isolate your house from the rest of the electrical grid during an outage.

Enmax doesnt like that, your system must shutdown within 2 seconds of failing grid power, or you go off grid.

 

[Zapped]

Enmax doesnt like that, your system must shutdown within 2 seconds of failing grid power, or you go off grid.

The solar systems are designed this way so they are not feeding power into the grid and prevent the possible electrocution of a repair man. I believe it still may be possible to have an electrical disconnect from the building to the utility power and still operate the solar system that feeds the building
This would certainly have to be an automatic feature of the Powerwall if it is to be used as back up power

 

[int32_t]

Enmax doesnt like that, your system must shutdown within 2 seconds of failing grid power, or you go off grid.

I'm not sure if such a system exists. I was simply asserting that this -- hypothetical -- system would have to disconnect from the grid immediately while continuing to supply the house (as you stated), or else you're in the same position as your solar-less neighbour in a power outage.

The solar systems are designed this way so they are not feeding power into the grid and prevent the possible electrocution of a repair man. I believe it still may be possible to have an electrical disconnect from the building to the utility power and still operate the solar system that feeds the building
This would certainly have to be an automatic feature of the Powerwall if it is to be used as back up power

I can say for sure it won't be a feature built into the Powerwall, at least not the way the Powerwall is designed to function currently. Power flows in the system like this:

Solar (DC) -> Powerwall (DC) -> DC-AC Inverter (AC) -> Household Loads / Grid (AC) (see section How It Works at Tesla Powerwall)

To isolate the system from the grid, you would need a separate shutoff between the inverter and the grid, which normally allows power to flow to both house and grid but in an outage switches to house only. This should be possible because there are generators designed for permanent installation for the purpose of supplying a house during an outage.

Anyways, due to the above, the Powerwall would never know if there is an outage because it operates exclusively on the DC side of the system. Besides, if the Powerwall shut off, your inverter wouldn't have a supply of DC anymore.

From http://thirdsunsolar.com/does-solar-work-in-a-blackout/:

Now, new technology developed for SMA’s Sunny Boy 3000TL-US/4000TL-US/5000TL-US models offers a partial solution to the grid power failure problem. These new inverters feature a secure power supply (SPS) that can connect to an external socket outlet and provide up to 1,500W of daytime power—when the sun is shining and the array is generating sufficient power—in the event of a grid outage. This gives customers confidence that they can get a small supply of electricity from their solar inverter even when the grid is out and other solar PV systems are down. The bottom line is, with new technology, grid-connected solar can deliver a limited amount of electricity to your home or business during a power outage. This is a new development.

If you were using a Powerwall with this type of inverter, it should function at night too.

 

[cwave1]

Thanks to everyone for their input so far. This is just the beginning of this journey but you have helped answer a few things for me and have added some questions I will ask Tesla when they contact me. If I happen to get the answers before others, I'll report back here.

 

[Zapped]

PowerWall in Canada $15-$20k ? !
www.timetoelectrify.ca

 

[S'toon]

PowerWall in Canada $15-$20k ? !
www.timetoelectrify.ca

WHAT?!

 

[Hugh Mannity]

Well now that makes no sense. Screw the middle man, I want to purchase directly from Tesla if possible

 

[int32_t]

Well now that makes no sense. Screw the middle man, I want to purchase directly from Tesla if possible

It's coming ... that's the whole point of the SolarCity deal, I believe. And hopefully no more external third-party inverter either!

 

[Zapped]

Here's a Canadian made solution.
Residential | Eguana Technologies

 

[ecarfan]

Here's a Canadian made solution.
Residential | Eguana Technologies

Interesting coincidence that each Eguana "AC Battery" (what a boring name) cabinet can accommodate exactly 6.4kWh of storage capacity, which is exactly the advertised capacity of one Tesla Powerwall.

What is the price of an Eguana AC Battery?

 

[Zapped]

What is the price of an Eguana AC Battery?

Unfortunately I do no have an answer. I only became aware of the company a few days ago.