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Powerwall versus Givenergy batteries

I know this is primarily a car forum but there is clearly a wealth of knowledge here on Solar PV and battery storage - so please forgive another post on this.

I've read the comprehensive threads on solar and I'm now trying to decide whether to go Powerwall 2 (can't get the 3) or Givenergy. My strengths aren't in things electrical and I don't want to make a mistake before I take the plunge. I see a few folk have gone the Givenery route.

Powerwall looks good and has good capacity and charge/discharge characteristics but it is expensive and the tech (for version 2) is arguably a bit old now. I can get 2 of the new 9.5kwh Givenergy batteries and 2 inverters (to handle higher discharge) for around 65% of one Powerwall 2. They also come with newer battery tech and 100% discharge capability. Although they are new models, I'm advised that I should be able to get them before a Powerwall 2.

The product page at Givenergy is here:


I like the idea of the full Tesla integration but why wouldn't I go for the Givenergy alternatives with more capacity and arguably newer tech? My lack of experience in this area probably means I'm missing something so I thought I'd seek some more advice before jumping in. I see the electrical contractor who has suggested Givenergy tomorrow so I'd like to have any questions ready. I can afford Powerwall but not entirely convinced (yet) that I need to go that route.

Thanks as always for any pointers.
 
What is this "newer tech" you talk of?

Or put another way, what does the GivEnergy do that you a) want/need and b) the Powerwall doesn't? Or vice versa.

MY rough thinking is it's a battery... so it really comes down to simple metrics. What's the capacity, how fast can it charge/discharge? What does it cost.

If the Powerwall doesn't do anything for you than the GivEnergy ones, and costs more, then why bother with the Power wall?
 
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browellm

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MY rough thinking is it's a battery... so it really comes down to simple metrics.
There's quite a fundamental difference in approach over control of the battery and software integrations. Sort of like open source vs walled garden. I won't try to make the case for one or the other, they both have pros and cons. But it's much more than just capacity and price.
 
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There's quite a fundamental difference in approach over control of the battery and software integrations. Sort of like open source vs walled garden. I won't try to make the case for one or the other, they both have pros and cons. But it's much more than just capacity and price.

It can be, for sure... but it doesn't have to be (ie. my dad has givenery batteries and has never ever touched any control on them or about them). But the issue I think is neither of us know what Spon wants from his, so it's very hard to say what the right answer is.
 

browellm

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MY rough thinking is it's a battery... so it really comes down to simple metrics.
There's quite a fundamental difference in approach over control of the battery and software integrations.
my dad has givenery batteries and has never ever touched any control on them or about them
Well yes, you can make a reductive case about anything. But let's assume that as someone's started a thread about one vs other, they want to know what the potential differences are.
 
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browellm

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Off the top of my head... aside from price

Powerwall strengths
  • Much nicer looking system
  • Built in islanding
  • Control via the same app as the car
  • Very fast load switching between house demand.
  • Has a dedicated energy plan available - TEP.

GivEnergy strengths
  • 3rd party and local control integrations.
  • Hybrid or AC invertor options
  • Full control of charge/discharge characteristics - potential for brokerage
  • Built-in Tariff integrations with tariffs such as Agile
  • Direct access to the developers.

Both are modular.

I'll try to think of more but the Powerwall peeps will chip in.
 
Well yes, you can make a reductive case about anything. But let's assume that as someone's started a thread about one vs other, they want to know what the potential differences are.
Indeed - particulary as I have limited experience, finding it a bit of a minefield and seeking the guidance of those who are much further down the track :)

Did I see in another thread that you opted for the Givenergy route please? Cheers
 
Reading the specs of the Givenergy devices, one thing which would make me think twice compared to a PW2 is the hybrid inverter. I appreciate the efficiency improvements such an arrangement brings when charging the battery from PV without incurring DC-AC-DC conversion losses. However, it seems PV and battery share the single inverter, which limits the combined output to 5 kW max, regardless of how much PV is available.

That may be fine for your usage patterns, but it's sometimes useful to have the headroom of separate PV/battery inverters.
 
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Reading the specs of the Givenergy devices, one thing which would make me think twice compared to a PW2 is the hybrid inverter. I appreciate the efficiency improvements such an arrangement brings when charging the battery from PV without incurring DC-AC-DC conversion losses. However, it seems PV and battery share the single inverter, which limits the combined output to 5 kW max, regardless of how much PV is available.

That may be fine for your usage patterns, but it's sometimes useful to have the headroom of separate PV/battery inverters.
This is a key area where my lack of knowledge isn't helping! In opting for two batteries and two inverters I was hoping that I could double the output to give much more headroom, but I may be way off there. I can see that one inverter is quite restricted but what I don't know is whether two batteries/inverters working together will double that. I guess there must be some form of control which allows several units to work together but I need to confirm that. I'm seeing the installer tomorrow so hopefully more insights there. For sure I don't want a lot of storage that is restriced on output. My formal qualifications are in pipes, reactors and distillation columns, not electrical - and it shows :)
 
I ordered a GivEnergy/Solar system in December and still waiting due to lead times on the GivEnergy battery, although the new 9.5kwh ones look interesting (I've ordered 8.2). GivEnergy use the LFP chemistry, not sure what Powerwalls use (NMC?). I believe LFP to have less concerns about being charged to 100% and more charge/discharge cycles than NMC. The downside of LFP is it is accepts and releases energy more slowly so you are more limited on charge and discharge rates than NMC, which for LFP in particular is exacerbated if the battery is cold (may impact installation choice).

All the other things mentioned about access to devs, 3rd party integrations etc appealed to me and is one of the reasons I went the GivEnergy route.

Powerwall gives you access to the Tesla Energy tariff, GivEnergy doesn't.

GivEnergy won't do a full off-grid solution, but you can wire up a 13A socket to it as an emergency back-up in the event of a power cut. (I dont know what Powerwall offers in this regard)
 
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Thanks again. I'm starting to build a picture that suggests that 2 Givenergy batteries plus 2 inverters may be my best solution. More capacity, cheaper and potentially more flexible. Downsides appear to be separate app, no dedicated Tesla energy plan (although the beta Octopus plan looks interesting), aesthetics and the lack of full off-grid. Still work to do but it all helps - cheers
 

browellm

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Particularly anyone who has Givenergy installed and where it's running nicely.
Had mine going for just over a year and have been pleased with it. I have just set up a nice integration with Intelligent Octopus which captures the extra slots off peak that get handed out so that car battery doesn't drain the GE battery.
 
Had mine going for just over a year and have been pleased with it. I have just set up a nice integration with Intelligent Octopus which captures the extra slots off peak that get handed out so that car battery doesn't drain the GE battery.
Excellent - you may be hearing more from me :)

That said, we don't travel a lot and so charging the car is not the top priority. We run a power-hungry home office so covering that and the usual domestic stuff will be the first call.
 
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I assume you will have to split the solar across the 2 hybrid inverters as well?
This thread has reminded me to speak to my installers. Expected Jul/Aug, but they are upgrading me to 9.5kwh batteries for free.
No idea to be honest but thanks for the heads-up and that's another question for the installer. Incidentally we do need a split array as we are E/W facing - another decision is how many panels on each side. Lots to consider for sure.
 

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