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Prediction: One battery for Model 3

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The S and X will have all the latest bells and whistles, the model 3 will get those new features only after they have been iterated and improved with the S and X and the cost of those things has come down.

This is probably a span of only a few months until there's a way to mass produce the feature inexpensively. I would imagine the S and X will get a feature after Model 3 reveal part 2 and those same features will show up as options in the Model 3 at launch.
 
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I agree there will be less value in customer paid unlocking of the battery in high mileage cars.

However, Tesla can chose to give a new life to high mileage cars by unlocking capacity and bringing its range back up to what it would have been originally i.e. original locked range.
I think I have done a poor job in explaining what I meant as it seams like you have not understood what I was trying to say.

Lets take an example:
TM3 gets an 70kWh battery with an EPA range of 255 miles. The base model gets software limited to 55kWh/215 EPA miles.
After lets say 8 years and 160k miles the battery has lot ~15% range (38 miles) and now has 217 EPA miles range left.
The software limited battery will still give the 215 EPA miles as it always have had, and an unlock will now only give it 2 additional EPA miles of range.
When the software limited battery has lost 20% range (51 miles) and is left with 204 EPA miles, there is nothing to gain by unlocking it at all.

So when an owner of this software limited battery finally does sees some degradation Tesla can't "bring it back", all the buffer on the top will by then be depleted. This is at least what I think/guess, based on the assumption that the buffer/limit will be at the top.
 
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I believe the opposite. I believe that the number of people buying the smallest battery will be over 20%, perhaps as much as one-third.

[Ducking for cover!]
No, no, excellent post. It's so well-expressed that I am going to use the points to shine light on facets of the "Hardware Sizes Only Plz" thesis. And I'm giving you a HELPFUL so don't throw things TOO hard at me either...

There are so many different lifestyles and budgets out there! Some people just do not need or want the range, yet want to drive electric. They may have free or reduced-fee charging at work. My feeling that there will be those who buy this car as their second car to drive around town on errands or to their job that is only a 25-mile round trip.
Yes, different strokes. But really, aren't over 20% of people going to have EITHER a job change OR a home move OR both within the ~8 year time you'd keep a battery? "Oops, looks like I won't be able to charge at the new job. Wish I'd bought a longer range battery. Wish there were a magic wand to wave to get more range from the same pack! That'd be of so much VALUE to me..."

The car might be a graduation present for a child or grandchild who is going to college in town or just a short distance away where there is charging on campus.
And again, most college careers aren't going to outlive the battery's "career," either, and options that don't require recycling and a service visit (probably costing the same as a theoretical SW range-upgrade too!) would be a thing of value to both parties.

Others could opt to spend their money on Supercharger access (let's say that the cost is $1,000-$1,500) rather than dropping many thousands more for a ~260-mile battery with Supercharging included.
Others could opt to spend their money on Supercharger access at purchase, and spend for unlocking later when it makes more sense. Potato, to-mah-to.

What I believe makes better economics for Tesla at the outset of the Model III would be to have fixed battery sizes until they can develop a sense as to the demand for sizing. Moreover, they might be supply constrained from the Gigafactory the first year or two.
Fair enough. But, they might not be!

They will be able to produce more vehicles more cheaply as there are no idle cells sitting in the battery packs for those who opted for the smallest size.
There wouldn't be idle cells anyway. The limit in the software would be like the limits on a "classic" pack, which already keeps the "true 100%" and "true 0%" states of charge out of reach of children, uh, I mean, us.

It might be cheaper for Tesla to be able to swap out the small fixed battery for a larger pack upon trade in several years later too as cell prices drop.
We might be gazing into different brands of crystal balls, I agree cell-prices will keep going down but OTOH the savings in cost of labor to do a physical swap (and deal with evaluating the trade-in), the time and effort for the owner to get the car in for service, separate manufacturing configs, etc. make me think the flip-a-software-switch scenario is of a very high value to the company.
 
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Agree or maybe two hardware versions with software upgrades. Simplified production, spread costs over all cars to recoup expense, higher resale for Tesla without need to replace battery pack. It makes sense assuming he can make the battery packs cheep enough.
 
The "new" 60, that's really a software locked 75 got me thinking. If Tesla has the margins to be able to offer a single battery with a software lock on the Model S and still turn a profit, It's probably going to be the same on the 3.

One battery, software locked at the low end, full realized (no lock) on the high end.

Simplifies manufacturing not just from the battery side, but also the power output required for "P" models and faster supercharging speeds would all be included in every car. Less different hardware, less inventory of parts, simple repairs.
Probably software unlock for the high end charger like we have currently on S & X.
The model 3 might be heavy on the options that are software unlockable.

Thoughts?
Good points. I would guess that... The base car will have a 55 kWh available capacity, but that will be software limited from either 70 kWH or 75 kWh. I still hope that a higher capacity battery pack, with a full 90 kWH or 100 kWh is offered as well. So, for the sake of marketing, three capacities, and for the ease of manufacturing, only two. Naturally, I'd expect the 70 kWH and higher capacities to include the 'FREE for LIFE!' access to Superchargers.

I am sure that there are some who would knock my maximum numbers down by 10 kWh or 15 kWh or so. They apparently expect the car to miraculously average something below 150 Wh per mile of energy consumption, just by having a Tesla badge on it.

Some have actively proclaimed they don't want Supercharger access for Model ☰ at all. Not limited, not pay-per-use, not unlimited.

We'll see.
 
I would not pay $6000 to go from 215 miles to 250. There is no way that is a good deal! A $4000 battery upgrade better get me 300!
.

How about $4,500 for 40 miles? That would be the proportional price for battery upgrade on the T3 vs Model 60S. $66,000/$8500/40 miles on the TS60, $35,000/$4,500 on the T3.

Tesla charges an extra $500 to upgrade the battery after delivery, $8,500 vs. $9,000 on the TS60D. For working people likely financing the T3 that would be $5,000 that would not be included in the original car finance so a bit incentive to upgrade the battery when buying.
 
. For working people likely financing the T3 that would be $5,000 that would not be included in the original car finance so a bit incentive to upgrade the battery when buying.
or look at it another way... states that offer sales tax exemptions for battery upgrades would have it make sense to upgrade after the purchase vs at the time of purchase (assuming the $8000/$8,500 upgrade costs on the MS).
WA's EV car sales tax exemptions only gives you the break on the first $32,000 of the purchase price, but batteries and infrastructure purchased separately are tax exempt. So instead of paying sales tax on the $8000 ($688 based on local tax rate) at the time of purchasing/financing the car, add it on later for $8500 without tax and save $188.
 
WA's EV car sales tax exemptions only gives you the break on the first $32,000 of the purchase price, but batteries and infrastructure purchased separately are tax exempt. So instead of paying sales tax on the $8000 ($688 based on local tax rate) at the time of purchasing/financing the car, add it on later for $8500 without tax and save $188.

Assuming the working man's Tesla, you have to come up with $5000 (cost to upgrade battery after purchase) to save the $150 in sales tax vs. rolling it into the finance of the car initially. I think for most folks, those financing the car as they always do, rolling it into the financing would be what they could afford.
 
Considering how much battery development and cost reduction has happened in the past 8 years, I think that in another 8 years, few people will be worrying about trying to get as much as they can out of an 8 year old 100,000 mile pack.
 
No, no, excellent post. It's so well-expressed that I am going to use the points to shine light on facets of the "Hardware Sizes Only Plz" thesis. And I'm giving you a HELPFUL so don't throw things TOO hard at me either...


Yes, different strokes. But really, aren't over 20% of people going to have EITHER a job change OR a home move OR both within the ~8 year time you'd keep a battery? "Oops, looks like I won't be able to charge at the new job. Wish I'd bought a longer range battery. Wish there were a magic wand to wave to get more range from the same pack! That'd be of so much VALUE to me..."


And again, most college careers aren't going to outlive the battery's "career," either, and options that don't require recycling and a service visit (probably costing the same as a theoretical SW range-upgrade too!) would be a thing of value to both parties.


Others could opt to spend their money on Supercharger access at purchase, and spend for unlocking later when it makes more sense. Potato, to-mah-to.

Fair enough. But, they might not be!


There wouldn't be idle cells anyway. The limit in the software would be like the limits on a "classic" pack, which already keeps the "true 100%" and "true 0%" states of charge out of reach of children, uh, I mean, us.

We might be gazing into different brands of crystal balls, I agree cell-prices will keep going down but OTOH the savings in cost of labor to do a physical swap (and deal with evaluating the trade-in), the time and effort for the owner to get the car in for service, separate manufacturing configs, etc. make me think the flip-a-software-switch scenario is of a very high value to the company.

Fiddler, :). I think what I was driving at was that there is a large part of the country where people live in moderately large, but isolated cities like Fresno, Reno, Spokane, Twin Cities where they may change jobs occasionally, but are not suddenly driving 90 miles per day round trip. There are lots of people who are school teachers or other government employees who do not change jobs during their careers. (By the way, I have at least a dozen clients who fit either of these situations.) They might move to a nicer house, but their commute does not change that much. Fleet sales would also fall into this category where the daily driving range is never more than 100 miles or so.

I am very unclear about the battery cell argument. I am also very ignorant about the cells. Are you saying that a battery cell that was manufactured in 2013, but never used (stored in its original box) still has 100% charging capacity, and has not degraded at all? Are you saying that a 70kWh battery but limited to 55kWh has 13-14kWh as the "true 100% charge?" Or are all the cells used, but each cell is limited to, say 80% total charge, and not 100%? My thinking is that a battery pack that has a 70kWh potential, but is limited to 55 will not have 70kWh available 4-5 years down the road because of degradation of the inactive (or idle) cells that provide no use other than to prevent battery failure. I would think that there would be a lot of unhappy customers who pull the trigger 4-5 years later to pay the inflated upgrade price only to receive a 94% max charge.

Cheers! :cool:
 
Looks like Tesla got rid of the one battery Model S60/75 and they are two separate options.

Maybe this was just a trial for the future Model 3 and it was a no go.
Could it be possible that they're still the same hardware, and the 60 comes with a "Surprise! You have 75 kwh available, but you'll have to upgrade for $X" type of message after a while?
 
Looks like Tesla got rid of the one battery Model S60/75 and they are two separate options.

Maybe this was just a trial for the future Model 3 and it was a no go.
the opposite I think.
The site current shows both the 60 & 75, but the 60 has "upgradable to 75" - and the Model X is now the same.
That seems to indicate that there is really good chance of the base Model 3 having a software limited larger battery.
The biggest change is that they sell both versions as "models".
 
Its the same battery Jeff. Same hardware. That's why you can remotely upgrade from a 60 to a 75.
the opposite I think.
The site current shows both the 60 & 75, but the 60 has "upgradable to 75" - and the Model X is now the same.
That seems to indicate that there is really good chance of the base Model 3 having a software limited larger battery.
The biggest change is that they sell both versions as "models".

It was a false alarm. The software upgrade part was temporarily removed late last month
see S60 can no longer be upgraded to 75 in software? | Tesla Motors (and I witnessed it removed myself)

Perhaps a dev screwed up for a few days. It's back on there now as software upgradable.