Preliminary EPA Data for Model 3 AWD & Model 3 P 2021 Released

[AlanSubie4Life]

Wait so if I understand this right, the new octovalve system allows the car to use waste heat from the battery to warm the cabin? This could be huge for efficiency in mild cold during long road trips.

Yeah it should allow them to have a more efficient heat pump because the cold side will be warmer due to heat from the battery (if it has sufficient excess heat to be scavenged).

It will definitely be a noticeable improvement in mild cold weather. Basically Bay Area and South it would be really helpful. Also coastal NW, Seattle, Portland, and BC would be very helpful. Almost always so mild and optimal for some hot heat pump action.

It's pretty versatile! The cold test results (at 20F) being much better do allow them to claim a range improvement, which is a reflection of this.

Really, there's not that much more room for improvement in efficiency now, as far as I can tell. From here it's going to be nearly all battery and energy density.

 

[AdamMacDon]

Yeah it should allow them to have a more efficient heat pump because the cold side will be warmer due to heat from the battery (if it has sufficient excess heat to be scavenged).

It will definitely be a noticeable improvement in mild cold weather. Basically Bay Area and South it would be really helpful. Also coastal NW, Seattle, Portland, and BC would be very helpful. Almost always so mild and optimal for some hot heat pump action.

It's pretty versatile! The cold test results (at 20F) being much better do allow them to claim a range improvement, which is a reflection of this.

Really, there's not that much more room for improvement in efficiency now, as far as I can tell. From here it's going to be nearly all battery and energy density.

Yeah this change will be huge for long drives in west BC during the winter. Around 10 degrees celsius long drives really spike your energy consumption due to the PTC heater running. I've always wondered why they can't just use the battery coolant (which is around 40-50 degrees) to bring the cabin heat up to around 20 degrees. Looks like my prayers have been answered, now I just need to be able to afford a new Tesla, haha.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Yeah this change will be huge for long drives in west BC during the winter. Around 10 degrees celsius long drives really spike your energy consumption due to the PTC heater running.

I do wonder what is the "optimum" heat pump outside temperature (that is to say, at which temperature does it gives you the most improvement in Wh/mi, vs. the PTC?).

I suspect 20F is non-optimal - the improvement in Wh/mi there is probably less than it is at say 40F. Heat pump thermodynamic efficiency increases as the temperature differential is reduced. And at some point the heat pump compressor turns into a resistive heater according to their docs, so there wouldn't be any significant gain vs. the PTC below that point (though there would probably be some).

Another factor is that they can't cool the battery too much because then you potentially lose regen which is not necessarily energy efficient (depends on the drive). The savings would be lost in frictional losses.

I'm guessing the optimum temperature for improvement, where you get the most improvement, is 40-50 degrees. Perfect for folks in the Pacific Northwest, west of the Cascades, in winter time. Actually more like 7 months of the year. Lol. I'm from Portland, but can't leave San Diego; the weather is too good.

 

[AdamMacDon]

I do wonder what is the "optimum" heat pump outside temperature (that is to say, at which temperature does it gives you the most improvement in Wh/mi, vs. the PTC?).

I suspect 20F is non-optimal - the improvement in Wh/mi there is probably less than it is at say 40F. Heat pump thermodynamic efficiency increases as the temperature differential is reduced. And at some point the heat pump compressor turns into a resistive heater according to their docs, so there wouldn't be any significant gain vs. the PTC below that point (though there would probably be some).

Another factor is that they can't cool the battery too much because then you potentially lose regen which is not necessarily energy efficient (depends on the drive). The savings would be lost in frictional losses.

I'm guessing the optimum temperature for improvement, where you get the most improvement, is 40-50 degrees. Perfect for folks in the Pacific Northwest, west of the Cascades, in winter time. Actually more like 7 months of the year. Lol. I'm from Portland, but can't leave San Diego; the weather is too good.

I'm no physicist, but my GF is and she says simplified it's a couple degrees above freezing (8C, which I think is around 45F). There are a few key variable that affect this, but generally the main ones are target temp for the cabin and outside temp, humidity and altitude (air density). From my limited time in Portland, it is for sure very similar to west coast Canada, a ton of rain and gloomy weather for half the year, haha. These are the places where the heat pump will really shine. Colder parts of Canada and hot areas like SoCal it's probably pretty negligible, I would imagine.

 

[EvanLin]

So the preliminary document from the EPA for 2021 Model 3 AWD & Performance is released:
https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=51235&flag=1

Where can I find preliminary document of previous models (like 2020 Model 3)? All I can find now is "formal" documents. Thanks.

I am looking for data like this.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Where can I find preliminary document of previous models (like 2020 Model 3)? All I can find now is "formal" documents. Thanks.

I am looking for data like this.

View attachment 607580

Last I checked that data was on that website for prior years. You just have to find the right document (there are several for each vehicle). Just download all the related documents and go through one by one. the documents with those tables are the ones with the pictures, etc.

 

[TimothyHW3]

It seems that indeed there are 2 variants of the battery and Tesla is putting the old cells into 2021 AWD models at random. Only 82kWh in the P, probably due to EPA ratings.

https://twitter.com/BillWri90307793/status/1326456385345712128

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

It seems that indeed there are 2 variants of the battery and Tesla is putting the old cells into 2021 AWD models at random. Only 82kWh in the P, probably due to EPA ratings.

https://twitter.com/BillWri90307793/status/1326456385345712128

Good to know. Seems that if you want a 370-mile range Model 3 AWD, you should wait to buy until next year. Or buy a Performance and find a way to put some Aeros on it (maybe the new 18” wheels have wider barrel diameter and just need a spacer (doubt it)). That P will have crazy range. I wonder if they’ll ever fix the MPGe value (see first post)?

 

[TimothyHW3]

the new 18” wheels have wider barrel

18" fit on P, see Nyland. But it is a tight fit. Also, there are AWDs with the new batteries out there, it is luck. I don't think the P can do the same consumption as AWD though, different motors setup differently, but with 19" it can get close yes.

But at the end of the day 3-4kWh will hardly be of any difference, most people charge daily anyways.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

18" fit on P, see Nyland.

Good to know. That is a change from prior years when they unequivocally did not fit (rear had negative clearance). I guess I may try to pick a set up for my car.

But at the end of the day 3-4kWh will hardly be of any difference, most people charge daily anyways.

I’m talking about road trips, where such a large amount of energy would matter on longer legs, occasionally. People get really bent out of shape when their batteries lose 15-20 miles of range, so an extra 3-4kWh is substantial.

I don't think the P can do the same consumption as AWD though, different motors setup differently,

That’s just not true. In 2020, the Model 3 Performance was significantly MORE efficient than the AWD. It looks like this year they have brought them to parity, by aligning the AWD (and the reason for the difference is the wheels on the Model 3 P). See above; I discussed this.

Obviously, as equipped, the Model 3 P is not as efficient. But if you put the same wheels on it I would expect it to be roughly the same efficiency as the AWD (again, in 2020, if you did that, the Model 3 P was more efficient). See the discussion in the first post.

Again, ignore the MPGe for the Performance here - that number is not relevant to efficiency since there was an issue with the recharge event. Look at the DC efficiencies and compare to prior years. The Performance is not going to have 4% worse recharge efficiency than every other Model 3.

 

[TimothyHW3]

Good to know. That is a change from prior years when they unequivocally did not fit (rear had negative clearance). I guess I may try to pick a set up for my car.

He has a late 2018/early2019 build not sure what you mean by prior years. But it barely fits and he had some issues with the breaks so I wouldn't recommend it.

As for P, no idea, he has made some runs on the P with 18 and it was consistantly underperforming vs AWD on 18. I am not sure what they can do to fix that,since the P runs at higher peak kW, so unless they did some setup changes and lowered that on the new Ps and increased the AWDs (possible) I don't see how it can be MORE efficient (maybe same), but who knows.

I still wouldn't go with the P because of the 20". If anything I would pay 1800$ to get the boost and save, but I don't need the acc. personally.

3-4kWh - it is about 15 miles at highway speed in good weather and probably less with wind and rain. Don't get me wrong, I def needed that in more than 1 occasion, but for 95% of the people it is irrelevant.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

He has a late 2018/early2019 build not sure what you mean by prior years. But it barely fits and he had some issues with the breaks so I wouldn't recommend it.

So, it doesn’t fit. I was referring to the new 18” wheels which are slightly modified and could have a larger barrel diameter (no idea why they don’t...). It would not take much - just a few mm and it would clear the rear brakes.

and increased the AWDs (possible) I don't see how it can be MORE efficient (maybe same), but who knows.

Well, the EPA data knows and it is unequivocal on that. The 2020 Performance 18” (not lowered, no spoiler - the Stealth) was very clearly more efficient than the 2020 AWD 18”. There isn’t any debate. See the table in the first post (169/163 and 180/175). Enough of a difference that it is probably not numerical noise.

 

[miimura]

If you want to put 18" wheels on a Performance Model 3, the Tsportline 18's are known to fit over the Performance brakes. However, they probably don't have the same aero characteristics as the factory 18" wheels with Aero covers.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

If you want to put 18" wheels on a Performance Model 3, the Tsportline 18's are known to fit over the Performance brakes. However, they probably don't have the same aero characteristics as the factory 18" wheels with Aero covers.

Yeah, I know, I have two sets of 18" wheels (a set for road trips and a set for autox) in addition to my 20". I just am interested in a set that don't require any hacking to get optimal aero characteristics, and fit over the Performance brakes.

Anyway, mostly off topic here, though definitely curious about those new 18" wheels still. Maybe someone will measure the barrel diameter at some point.

 

[AdamMacDon]

If you want to put 18" wheels on a Performance Model 3, the Tsportline 18's are known to fit over the Performance brakes. However, they probably don't have the same aero characteristics as the factory 18" wheels with Aero covers.

I'll add to this for fellow Canadians, there are knockoff TST sportline wheels I found at canadawheels.ca that are super cheap (and made in QC), I paid $670 shipped to my door, taxes in. That's like $500 US for you yankees. Even if you're American it may be worth paying the customs fees to get it across, especially since your dollar goes so far here. I've had them for about 6 months and zero issues. And yes, they clear the performance brakes in the 18" size. I believe they are called ART 171 Replika. The best part is they don't have logos embossed into the rim, unlike some of TST's new wheels.

 

[Goencz]

Sorry if I missed this, but are these the LFP batteries seen in China that can be charged to 100%?

 

[miimura]

Sorry if I missed this, but are these the LFP batteries seen in China that can be charged to 100%?

No, the LFP battery packs in China are SR+ sized. This thread is discussing the new higher density battery in the LR pack made in Nevada. It should have about the same charging characteristics as the original LR pack.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Awesome presentation/analysis of the data!

Any thoughts as to why EPA data is lagged on the SR+ refresh?

Here is the start of the SR+ data, for those who are interested:

SR+ 2021 Battery Specs and Range Published by EPA

 

[AdamMacDon]

Does anyone who has taken delivery of a refreshed dual motor 2021 have real world wh/km data driving in the cold (sub 10 degrees Celsius)? I am debating trading in my SR+ for one.

 

[jjrandorin]

(moderator note: moved to battery and charging section)