Price gouging continues on the 3. Can't say I'm surprised.

[neroden]

Numerous issues with the prices on the 3.

Between the 2 batteries, it looks like around a 20 Kw difference. And with Teslas' battery cost below $150, I will be generous and say $150 per Kw. That's $3000 more in costs for the big battery. They are charging $9000. That is SIX THOUSAND DOLLARS PROFIT on the battery alone.

I would be ok with the big battery costing $4K to $5K. But $9K? Just say no.

The upcharge on big batteries for Model S back in 2013 was much worse than that: $10,000 for about 10 kWh, so you can calculate the profit. I think a $9000 upcharge for 20 kWh is exceedingly reasonable (it's less than half as much per kWh!)

The big batteries are a profit center for Tesla, and that's been true since Model S came out.

Then the wheels. The FUGLY Aero wheels are free. The decent looking 5 or 10 spoke wheels, depending on how you count them, are $1,500. Should be $500 tops. Somehow I was thinking the Aero wheels would be the pricey option, I may have been wrong.

People absolutely should be price-gouged for choosing less-efficient wheels for idiotic aesthetic reasons. The gaps between spokes have no function on a modern wheel -- they were to dissipate brake heat, but friction brakes get used so little on the Tesla, that's not a needed function. Choosing such wheels is basically choosing to waste energy in favor of looks, like a light show at Vegas. Expect to pay through the nose for such frippery.

I think the Model 3 Aero wheels look great. They will give the car more range. They will also be better in the winter than idiotic spoke wheels, since they prevent snow from getting inside the wheel wells. (This is personal experience with both types of wheels on Model S.)

If you want to have less efficent, less functional wheels for your peacock-strutting desires, Tesla will take your money. Good for them.

And what is up with the chargers? 32 amps for the small battery and 40 for the big one? Why not just bolt in the 48 amp Model S charger and give everyone faster charging? Why slow down the charging so much? 48 amps is slow enough already!!!

They've been crippling charging on Model S for a while now for stupid reasons anyway; I keep getting kicked down to 32 amps when my house circuit can handle 40 amps because of some really stupid algorithms programmed by stupid people at Tesla in response to an unrelated fire. (And I have the good old 72 amp charger!)

I suspect that higher-powered inverters are actually expensive right now; there are signs of this in the solar panel industry. I think the smaller-ampacity charger actually costs Tesla *significantly* less which is why this is a differentiation point.

 

[dragonxt]

The upcharge on big batteries for Model S back in 2013 was much worse than that: $10,000 for about 10 kWh, so you can calculate the profit. I think a $9000 upcharge for 20 kWh is exceedingly reasonable (it's less than half as much per kWh!)

The big batteries are a profit center for Tesla, and that's been true since Model S came out.



People absolutely should be price-gouged for choosing less-efficient wheels for idiotic aesthetic reasons. The gaps between spokes have no function on a modern wheel -- they were to dissipate brake heat, but friction brakes get used so little on the Tesla, that's not a needed function. Choosing such wheels is basically choosing to waste energy in favor of looks, like a light show at Vegas. Expect to pay through the nose for such frippery.

I think the Model 3 Aero wheels look great. They will give the car more range. They will also be better in the winter than idiotic spoke wheels, since they prevent snow from getting inside the wheel wells. (This is personal experience with both types of wheels on Model S.)

If you want to have less efficent, less functional wheels for your peacock-strutting desires, Tesla will take your money. Good for them.



They've been crippling charging on Model S for a while now for stupid reasons anyway; I keep getting kicked down to 32 amps when my house circuit can handle 40 amps because of some really stupid algorithms programmed by stupid people at Tesla in response to an unrelated fire. (And I have the good old 72 amp charger!)

I suspect that higher-powered inverters are actually expensive right now; there are signs of this in the solar panel industry. I think the smaller-ampacity charger actually costs Tesla *significantly* less which is why this is a differentiation point.

Any numbers in increased efficiency on Aero wheels? 1.x percent?

 

[neroden]

Tesla should have offered at least white and black paint as standard. it's next to impossible to keep a black car clean or cool in the summer.

I have to agree with this. The effective base price for the car is $36,000, because black's not acceptable to a supermajority of buyers. They've just discounted black by $1000 in order to maintain the claim that the base price is $35,000.

That said, with this much demand, they can get away with stuff like that.

 

[neroden]

Any numbers in increased efficiency on Aero wheels? 1.x percent?

Nobody's actually sure because nobody's been able to do a *controlled* test - there are too many other variables. It seems to be between 1% and 7% depending on conditions.

It makes a ridiculously huge difference, however, if the non-aero wheels are sucking sticky snow through the wheel into the inside of the wheel well, which happened to me under particular weather conditions.

 

[neroden]

I would not be surprised if there are more 18" and 19" wheel options later in the year and aftermarket wheels are not too expensive if you really don't like the look.

It does irritate me that the 18" wheels for Model 3 won't fit on a Model S, or I'd buy those unwanted aero rims off the people who don't want them.

 

[AB4EJ]

Here is a nearly foolproof way of coming to terms with "Tesla price gouging" : buy some Tesla stock.

Then you are incentivized to do what it takes to ensure Tesla stays in business. Which they have to make a profit (at least eventually) to do.

After Tesla fills the backlog of demand for the Model 3, it's going to be challenging enough for them to be profitable going forward... to sell enough EVs to make use of the huge capacity of the Model 3 line, and do it at a profit... without people insisting that they sell cars and options at cost.

 

[neroden]

Wonder what they mean by "additional configurations......without upgrades will become available".

The base model will take a while to show up.

They're obviously having some issues with the production ramp on the general assembly line and don't want to introduce interior variation.

Battery pack variation is fine because they just slot in one of two different parts with identical form factors. Same with wheel variation. Paint shop is set up to handle paint variation. Software choices require even less work. But the "Premium Upgrades" vs. not having them creates issues on the general assembly line, issues they have already been having problems with on the S & X lines. There is definitely a possibility that the base model will not be released if those issues are not solvable, though I expect they'll do everything they possibly can to solve those issues.

 

[cwerdna]

The upcharge on big batteries for Model S back in 2013 was much worse than that: $10,000 for about 10 kWh, so you can calculate the profit. I think a $9000 upcharge for 20 kWh is exceedingly reasonable (it's less than half as much per kWh!)

No, it wasn't $10K per 10 kWh. Each capacity (40 to 60 to 85 kWh) was spaced $10K apart. It was very simple for the Tesla rep in the showroom I'd set foot in to explain.

You can see the original pricing at 2013 Model S Price Increase | Blog | Tesla Motors. Current URL at 2013 Model S Price Increase, after they switched domains.

So, it was $10K to go up 20 kWh and another $10K to add another 25 kWh.

 

[boiler81]

Since Tesla believes there will be significant sales cannibalized from Model S, they have to ensure the Model 3 replaces those profits.
So Model 3 gets over priced options, probably until the they achieve the return on their huge investment, and/or they get real competition.

 

[JoRey]

Since Tesla believes there will be significant sales cannibalized from Model S, they have to ensure the Model 3 replaces those profits.
So Model 3 gets over priced options, probably until the they achieve the return on their huge investment, and/or they get real competition.

The new leaf is set to have a autopilot competitor and is rummered to have at least two battery choices. Perhaps a 40 Kwh and 60 Kwh choice. If they are able to solve the issues they have had with their battery longevity and undercut the Model III by a significant amount. Maybe then we can see some reductions on autopilot software. Im sure the bolt will get a revision by the end of this year that will include some advanced cruise control and auto-steer options.

 

[MXWing]

The new leaf is set to have a autopilot competitor and is rummered to have at least two battery choices. Perhaps a 40 Kwh and 60 Kwh choice. If they are able to solve the issues they have had with their battery longevity and undercut the Model III by a significant amount. Maybe then we can see some reductions on autopilot software. Im sure the bolt will get a revision by the end of this year that will include some advanced cruise control and auto-steer options.

Do you have sources? All of the above sounds like theory speak to me. Just doesn't sound like to me Nissan or GM is anywhere close to having a patch delivery system that allows them to make adjustments/corrections to any semi-autonomous software.

My Gen 2 Volt doesn't have TACC and will die without TACC. Glad it's a lease.

 

[AustinPowers]

Numerous issues with the prices on the 3.

Ever bought a BMW, or a Merc, or an Audi?

Don't get me wrong, I would also like the bigger battery to be cheaper, and the wheel design (not size) of the 19inch option as standard. However I fully understand why Tesla is acting (and needs to act) this way economically. I am rather more concerned that the Model 3 that I want will cost around 60K Euro in the end, thanks to import duties and German tax. Nothing that Tesla can do much about. But knowing that thanks to generous incentives (and lack of the abovementioned extra costs), someone in California for example can get a well optioned Model 3 for the equivalent of less than 40K Euro, while we here would have to pay more than 20K Euro more for the same car - now that is something to be angry/sad about, not so much Tesla's pricing structure.

 

[JoRey]

Do you have sources? All of the above sounds like theory speak to me. Just doesn't sound like to me Nissan or GM is anywhere close to having a patch delivery system that allows them to make adjustments/corrections to any semi-autonomous software.

My Gen 2 Volt doesn't have TACC and will die without TACC. Glad it's a lease.

Im speculating on the Bolt. But the Leaf will have a feature called propilot and GM has super cruise that could be retrofitted on the bolt. Autonomous cars and EV's are set to launch by 2020 from almost all major manufacturers.

 

[Canuck]

The new leaf is set to have a autopilot competitor and is rummered to have at least two battery choices. Perhaps a 40 Kwh and 60 Kwh choice. If they are able to solve the issues they have had with their battery longevity and undercut the Model III by a significant amount. Maybe then we can see some reductions on autopilot software. Im sure the bolt will get a revision by the end of this year that will include some advanced cruise control and auto-steer options.

In my view, you're fooling yourself if you think the Bolt and Leaf will cut into Model 3 sales because people can save a few bucks once their AP catches up. If we've learned anything from the Model S, it's that people will stretch to own a Tesla. That's because if you park a Leaf, Bolt and Tesla 3 in a parking lot, there's simply no issue as to which one people will be interested in, and will gravitate towards. Even though there's a certain amount of subjectivity in aesthetics, we know when people get it wrong, and we know who got it wrong and who got it right when it comes to design.

Add to that no supercharging network, so you can't take them anywhere without relying on public chargers (no thanks!), and the Leaf and Bolt fall further behind Tesla. In my view, the Model 3 will seriously cut into Leaf and Bolt sales, and not the other way around. It's too bad since we want more competition in the EV market but I still see none that interests me, and I also own a Leaf as well as my Tesla.

 

[chronopc]

Electrek has a pretty good article comparing the base Model 3 to the BMW 3 Series. Seems like the base Model 3 isn't so bad.

https://electrek.co/2017/07/31/tesla-model-3-vs-bmw-3-series/

 

[drj3]

As a shareholder and a Model 3 reservation holder I see both sides of the issue. Yes, reality has set in, and the Model 3 I want will be costing more than I had planned to spend, but it still looks like a great car and I have no plans to cancel my order. As a shareholder, I'm happy with the pricing. When you're getting mostly rave initial reviews from the press, and you have reservations for over a year of production while anti-selling a car - it would be foolish not to charge premium prices for upgrades. Tesla has delivered on everything promised at the reveal - 215+ miles of range, car substantially the same as the prototype first displayed, likely to get 5 star safety ratings, and base model at the promised price. Much of people's unmet expectations were based on fan speculation and probably unrealistic hopes. I'm thrilled that they actually started production on time, based on Tesla's track record with other models, that is the biggest surprise.

 

[FlyF4]

They really need to make Econ 101 & 102 mandatory in high school.

Yea, I was sort of thinking the same thing. In my opinion, if my electric utility is charging 3 times the price of every other utility and it is the only choice I have, then it "MIGHT" be price gouging. However, if I have many choices of cars to buy and I consider supply and demand along with other factors, it isn't price gouging. If I think the price is too much for the features I want, then I look elsewhere.

 

[jtpassat]

nice troll thread.

 

[SnakeDoctorTD]

The upcharge on big batteries for Model S back in 2013 was much worse than that: $10,000 for about 10 kWh, so you can calculate the profit. I think a $9000 upcharge for 20 kWh is exceedingly reasonable (it's less than half as much per kWh!)

The big batteries are a profit center for Tesla, and that's been true since Model S came out.



People absolutely should be price-gouged for choosing less-efficient wheels for idiotic aesthetic reasons. The gaps between spokes have no function on a modern wheel -- they were to dissipate brake heat, but friction brakes get used so little on the Tesla, that's not a needed function. Choosing such wheels is basically choosing to waste energy in favor of looks, like a light show at Vegas. Expect to pay through the nose for such frippery.

I think the Model 3 Aero wheels look great. They will give the car more range. They will also be better in the winter than idiotic spoke wheels, since they prevent snow from getting inside the wheel wells. (This is personal experience with both types of wheels on Model S.)

If you want to have less efficent, less functional wheels for your peacock-strutting desires, Tesla will take your money. Good for them.



They've been crippling charging on Model S for a while now for stupid reasons anyway; I keep getting kicked down to 32 amps when my house circuit can handle 40 amps because of some really stupid algorithms programmed by stupid people at Tesla in response to an unrelated fire. (And I have the good old 72 amp charger!)

I suspect that higher-powered inverters are actually expensive right now; there are signs of this in the solar panel industry. I think the smaller-ampacity charger actually costs Tesla *significantly* less which is why this is a differentiation point.

Most of your post here is spot on, but come on, Tesla made EVs "sexy." It's not unreasonable for buyers to want their sexy Model 3 to have sexy wheels too. It's like having a smoking hot partner, who got dressed to impress, yet decided on Crocs for his/her feet. As comfortable as those Crocs may be, they are arguably ugly. Maybe not the best analogy, but you get it.

1500 for wheels and tires? I'd take that deal.

 

[adaptabl]

Now you can pay $2,000.00 for white vinyl instead of black vinyl. That is 100% profit. Really....