Price Increase

[RedWhite19]

If the government comes out and outright bans FSD and fines Tesla for fraudulent sales tactics, does the consumer get a refund?

Absolutely

 

[T_Gravity]

Actually the post said a lot more than that. It said that FSD reminded the poster of theranos and Enron. Nice job at cleaning it up though. And just for your information, what constitutes ready is really a regulatory and not a scientific definition. It's already better than the average driver but of course that's not good enough. But if you keep moving the goalposts on what is good enough such that you insist that the system is able to avoid any and all accidents all of the time – something that humans can't do – it may never be ready.

Lol. I know this would butt hurt so many people. Enron and Theranos did not start the company with the whole idea of fraud.

Elizabeth Holmes still thinks that if she had more time, she would have accomplished what she started. It is just just that investors were skeptical and they ran out of patience.

FSD is similar, world will take it for only so long. Setup realistic expectations is what Tesla should do instead of jacking up the prices and promising unrealistic timelines.

Tesla is promising "Full Self Driving", nothing less, do you really think we will be there in a decade?? I can garauntee you that we won't. These all will be advanced driver assistance features for a foreseeable future.

And BTW, there are still people who support Elizabeth Holmes even after the trial. They will always be people who support EM/Tesla if it ever gets in trouble. Such is our world, after all, we still had 78M people who voted for Trump.

 

[dfwatt]

Lol. I know this would butt hurt so many people. Enron and Theranos did not start the company with the whole idea of fraud.

Elizabeth Holmes still thinks that if she had more time, she would have accomplished what she started. It is just just that investors were skeptical and they ran out of patience.

FSD is similar, world will take it for only so long. Setup realistic expectations is what Tesla should do instead of jacking up the prices and promising unrealistic timelines.

Tesla is promising "Full Self Driving", nothing less, do you really think we will be there in a decade?? I can garauntee you that we won't. These all will be advanced driver assistance features for a foreseeable future.

And BTW, there are still people who support Elizabeth Holmes even after the trial. They will always be people who support EM/Tesla if it ever gets in trouble. Such is our world, after all, we still had 78M people who voted for Trump.

I think you're incredibly naive about sociopaths. I wrote my doctoral dissertation on this group so I can tell you Elizabeth Holmes is a sociopath. She started the company with a sociopathic intent and was caught up in the lie and attempted to defend a lie with other lies including the lie that you're choosing to believe namely that given enough time she would invent a blood testing machine that didn't require antibodies just software. If you knew any biology you would know that this is total BS. This business of defending a lie with another lie of course is a classic sociopathic trajectory. The notion that this is equivalent to what are Elon Musk has done is nuts. Sorry. But you are right about Trump and that's a classic object lesson in how sociopaths recruit people. Appeal to their greed and their tribalism and their lust for power and money.

 

[240W]

Enron I agree, they were caught up with corporate greed later on

Theranos, not sure about that, vision that they had even possible? If she had more time? Wouldn’t others have pursued and continued if plausible? From little that I read, sure feels fraudulent from the get go

Fsd, I can definitely see progress

 

[T_Gravity]

I think you're incredibly naive about sociopaths. I wrote my doctoral dissertation on this group so I can tell you Elizabeth Holmes is a sociopath. She started the company with a sociopathic intent and was caught up in the lie and attempted to defend a lie with other lies including the lie that you're choosing to believe namely that given enough time she would invent a blood testing machine that didn't require antibodies just software. If you knew any biology you would know that this is total BS. This business of defending a lie with another lie of course is a classic sociopathic trajectory. The notion that this is equivalent to what are Elon Musk has done is nuts. Sorry.

Well, I hate typing. So, I am not going to keep on arguing here. Neither am I going to deny you. I don't have a PHD in anything and not going to argue with some who has one on the topic.

But, I will ask you one question, did you do your analysis on Elizabeth Holmes before her fraud was made public??
Everyone believed her when she was in the office and no one suspected her to be a sociopath.

Now, I don't think Elon Musk is sociopath, he truly believes he can get FSD working and probably he can, but, from what I believe and with my knowledge ( not an expert), I don't believe it is possible with in the time frame they are suggesting.

My whole complaint is this, they are charging 10 to 12 thousand dollars on something that is not feasible in the lifetime of the car. I am sure they know it, but they choose to continue to do it and keep jack up the price too.

I am done with this topic.

 

[MacO512]

So you're suggesting that the most elite technical team that's been assembled in modern times in an attempt to solve one of the most formidable problems in artificial intelligence, one that actually proves just how amazing biological brains are, is like a scam artist sociopath corporation and another scam artist sociopath who used lies to build a phony corporation? Really? What is your evidence for those wild ideas?

Now I don't quite agree with your paraphrase and suspect that's not what the poster meant.

However just look at the name of what Tesla sells for $12,000... "Full Self Driving"

The product the you are giving today is nowhere close to what those words imply.

If the current software was purchased from a small used car lot many people would consider it a borderline scam.

 

[dfwatt]

Well, I hate typing. So, I am not going to keep on arguing here. Neither am I going to deny you. I don't have a PHD in anything and not going to argue with some who has one on the topic.

But, I will ask you one question, did you do your analysis on Elizabeth Holmes before her fraud was made public??
Everyone believed her when she was in the office and no one suspected her to be a sociopath.

Now, I don't think Elon Musk is sociopath, he truly believes he can get FSD working and probably he can, but, from what I believe and with my knowledge ( not an expert), I don't believe it is possible with in the time frame they are suggesting.

My whole complaint is this, they are charging 10 to 12 thousand dollars on something that is not feasible in the lifetime of the car. I am sure they know it, but they choose to continue to do it and keep jack up the price too. Actually, lots of people had lots of concerns about Elizabeth Holmes. However, Silicon Valley believes that software can solve any problem, and someone claiming special expertise in software is harder to expose. But blood testing has known and very complex biology and everybody that I knew among my physician colleagues she was full of crap. It is amazing that all the dissenting voices were submerged in the chorus of Harrah's man got swept up in the wild enthusiasm for a breakthrough. Since she had no real science, all she could do was fake it.

Well, I hate typing. So, I am not going to keep on arguing here. Neither am I going to deny you. I don't have a PHD in anything and not going to argue with some who has one on the topic.

But, I will ask you one question, did you do your analysis on Elizabeth Holmes before her fraud was made public??
Everyone believed her when she was in the office and no one suspected her to be a sociopath.

Now, I don't think Elon Musk is sociopath, he truly believes he can get FSD working and probably he can, but, from what I believe and with my knowledge ( not an expert), I don't believe it is possible with in the time frame they are suggesting.

My whole complaint is this, they are charging 10 to 12 thousand dollars on something that is not feasible in the lifetime of the car. I am sure they know it, but they choose to continue to do it and keep jack up the price too.

I am done with this topic.

Actually my understanding is that behind the scenes a lot of people had a lot of questions about how Elizabeth Holmes could claim to do what she was claiming to do. But the enthusiasm within Silicon Valley for anything where people claim that some magical software is going to solve problems that heretofore had required expensive technology is shall we say uncritical. No one asked me to do a psych evaluation on her. But I'm pretty confident that given an hour of interviewing I could have exposed her.

One of the things that trips up this group is that the touchstone for reality is their grandiosity. Everything else is organized around and subordinated to that, Including reality itself. So when you see that kind of signature and you see actually an existing trail behind them of grandiose claims coupled with modest actual achievement it becomes a bit of a tip-off. Additionally they tend to alienate colleagues and show a pattern in which people initially idealize them and admire them but then later those colleagues are ejected and devalued. That's another tip-off.

It's not that hard actually to see sociopaths if you understand a few concepts. Google the subject and you'll get some good links. The scary thing is that on average we are poor at detecting sociopaths until it's too late. Until we've been scammed, lied to, robbed, or worse. And their special skill is in fomenting a kind of militant tribalism in which they are installed in power in a tribe that is acting out tribal grievance. History is littered with examples of that,. Take Nazi Germany for example.

These are incredibly important subjects for humanity given that we have authoritarian regimes taking over in a lot of places with fragile democracies including potentially even in the United States. Somebody once said that if we do not understand history we repeat it. On this subject we show little progress towards understanding. We are suckers for the latest demagogue. And while these subjects appear to have nothing to do with climate change, I'm not optimistic that a bunch of warring authoritarian tribes have a snowball's chance in hell of reversing climate change.

And your right, for all his missteps Elon Musk does not fit into this pattern. Most particularly not the pattern of grandiose claims unmatched by great performances. Elon gets it done, although he is like a moth to the flame on Twitter

 

[nate704]

If you think the FSD is worth the money and you can afford it, you get it. If not, don’t buy it.

For me, I’d rather buy a Tesla call option with that money and it will be at least $20k or more profit on top of the $10-$12k.

 

[TMSfanatic]

FSD as a whole package is BS. Everyone buying FSD now is like pouring money in to it's R&D.

In the useful life of the car, (10 to 15 years) from now, I highly doubt there will be a full self driving car.

With the way they are pricing FSD and marketing it. If Tesla ever goes down, it will be because of FSD.

When thinking about FSD, I find lot of similarities like ENRON and Theranos.

One of the most sound posts ive read in a while.