Pricing/Option Aftermath: Still buying?

[ljbad4life]

Well after seeing the pricing and options list, I'm actually going to get more than I intended to, but I also had to rethink some of the options. I will get a non sig 300 mile pack

1)active suspension- I was not going to get it when it was announce because I expected a high price (most other luxury cars have the option for 3-5k), but for 1500 I will take the plunge.

2)Tech Package- I was going to get it without a doubt, but 3.5k is a bit of a hard pill to swallow, when most tech packages on other luxury cars includes radar cruise control. I will probably still get if because of the headlights (which the headlamps should've been LED like the fog lamps, but not complaining), back up camera and nav.

3) Leather- I wanted to go with microfiber, but I want heated seats which are only available with the leather seats.

4)aerodynamic wheels- 5% on a 300 mile pack is 15 miles, not a huge bonus, but it is enough to justify 1,500 for me.

 

[dsm363]

So I stopped by Tesla Santana Row on my way home from work. As you might imagine, there's a lot of buzz about the new pricing and people's reactions. Here is some information I got that I believe is accurate:

Thanks! Although I am in the process of driving to Chicago in a few hours for the same purpose but you did a much better job with the questions that I would have. Nice work.

The warranty concept makes sense. Same reason the Volt only uses a small portion of it's pack as I understand it.

I'm trying to decide about the Signature too. Am wondering if the 300 mile non-Signature with the 19" wheels makes more sense.

 

[Cobos]

So I stopped by Tesla Santana Row on my way home from work. As you might imagine, there's a lot of buzz about the new pricing and people's reactions. Here is some information I got that I believe is accurate:

1) The main reason the 40kWh version does not support Quick Charging is battery life. They're guaranteeing the battery for 8 years and at that size they're worried about the effect of frequent QCing on battery life.

3) The battery warranties do not yet have specifics, like what range decreases over time are acceptable. They do expect there will be some restrictions on how often you can Quick Charge. There are also things like not driving through water that's more than 5" deep, racing the car on a track, etc. that will adversely affect warranty coverage. Again, they do not yet know the specifics.

Finally, my own observation is that Tesla is listening and doing their best to keep up with all the feedback. They have a very calm and understanding attitude about the reaction to the pricing announcement. They believe things will settle down. They've had people cancel due to the pricing, but they've also had people put down new deposits now that pricing was available. They think once test drives start happening reservations will increase a lot. They also didn't feel that everything was set in stone. Interestingly, they said most people today are either trying to save money and get the 40kWh battery or going full boat on the 85kWh battery, but that over time they expect more people to migrate towards the middle battery as the best value.

This does make sense, but it's just a really bad way of handling the problem. I'm okay with Tesla saying you can QC the 40kWh pack for 0 - 5- 200 or whatever times and anything above that will void your battery warranty or reduce your battery warranty. Then I make the choice if I really need the quick charge and is willing to take the hit to my warranty. It's my choice and as has been said in reality I probably wont take this car on long-distance trips anyway. But I CAN if I really want to, and that is the important part. Why else do people buy 4WD cars, because if theres lots of snow or they have to cross the mountain they CAN, not that they ever is going to but they can. (Yes I know some people actually use 4wd every day, I'm not talking about those).

This in my eyes is the essence in the problem with the lack of supercharger for the 40kWh pack, well that and lack of support for other QC standards as well

Cobos

 

[dsm363]

This does make sense, but it's just a really bad way of handling the problem. I'm okay with Tesla saying you can QC the 40kWh pack for 0 - 5- 200 or whatever times and anything above that will void your battery warranty or reduce your battery warranty. Then I make the choice if I really need the quick charge and is willing to take the hit to my warranty.

Problem is most people don't actually read their warranty in the US at least. Even if it's explained to them that it's only allowed 4 times a year, they may forget and would be more angry when their warranty is voided than if they knew up front that it wasn't allowed and bought the car with that in mind.
I really hope they find a way to support it though for all of the battery pack sizes and keep the warranty intact as you said.

 

[Cobos]

Problem is most people don't actually read their warranty in the US at least. Even if it's explained to them that it's only allowed 4 times a year, they may forget and would be more angry when their warranty is voided than if they knew up front that it wasn't allowed and bought the car with that in mind.
I really hope they find a way to support it though for all of the battery pack sizes and keep the warranty intact as you said.

Sure that might be a problem, but there are lots of problems for people not reading what they sign.
Tesla could alleviate this partly by simply installing some logic on the touchscreen saying: "Are you sure you want to QC AND reduce your warranty?" After that one people can't really blame anyone can they.

Cobos

 

[AnOutsider]

Sure that might be a problem, but there are lots of problems for people not reading what they sign.
Tesla could alleviate this partly by simply installing some logic on the touchscreen saying: "Are you sure you want to QC AND reduce your warranty?" After that one people can't really blame anyone can they.

Cobos

I think that would be a happy medium, and thank you smorgasbord for the write up!

 

[dsm363]

Sure that might be a problem, but there are lots of problems for people not reading what they sign.
Tesla could alleviate this partly by simply installing some logic on the touchscreen saying: "Are you sure you want to QC AND reduce your warranty?" After that one people can't really blame anyone can they.

Cobos

That would work. They could have to sign in with their Teslamotors.com password and it would notify Tesla HQ that their warranty was now reduced to 4 or 6 years or something similar.

 

[AnOutsider]

In the end, I think I'm just going to stick with my Sig Sport. Realizing that I've got about half the car already paid for (deposit) makes the decision a bit easier.

 

[VolkerP]

I'm interested in item e). How many Roadster signatures were made and have they held their value more than a regular Roadster?

There were 100 Signature Roadsters in U.S. They are 2008 model year with 1.5 drive train. The 2.x models encountered lots of upgrades that made them superior to the 1.5 but the price was kept around $109k for the base model. That would depreciate the 2008 models. I didn't watch closely enough to see if signature cars hold an increased collector's value. I suggest you scan through the Tesla for Sale forum to get an idea of resale prices.

 

[smorgasbord]

I'm interested in item e). How many Roadster signatures were made and have they held their value more than a regular Roadster?

The collector car market takes years to develop. It's really hard to predict ahead of time, really easy in hindsight. I think today people buying used Roadsters aren't looking for collector cars (if they were, someone would buy the one of the Final Five that is still available as new), so the Roadster Sigs don't have any particular value right now.

Years from now, probably at least a decade away, when Tesla is successful (notice I didn't say "if"), people will put some non-actual-use value on the car that started it all - the Roadster. It'll be interesting to see how many are still around by then (accidents, etc.), and whether people want the early ones (rarity) or want the later ones (better as drivers). For instance, if anyone didn't upgrade their 1.0 drivetrain to 1.5, that would be extremely rare, and even though the car would have a limited top end and couldn't use second gear, it'd be the only one around capturing that moment in time, and so it'd be worth a whole lot of money. Unfortunately, it seems that everyone upgraded, so that moment is gone.

And while we might predict that the Roadster, and especially the sigs, will start increasing in value, there are all sorts of factors at play. Does Tesla come out with another convertible sports car? Will that car better in every way? Will it have the carbon fiber? Will it be more than a 2 seater? What will Tesla's support of the Roadster be? Will there upgraded battery packs for longer range or better performance? Will EVs die in the market, making a Tesla the 21st century equivalent of a Baker electric?

Many people thought DeLoreans would have value down the road. Between how the company crashed and the mediocre performance of the cars themselves that hasn't happened, despite being immortalized in the Back to the Future movies.

 

[smorgasbord]

This does make sense, but it's just a really bad way of handling the problem.

This is uncharted territory, not only for Tesla, but all EV automakers. Tesla is pushing the envelope in a good way with its 8 year battery warranty, and naturally doesn't want to set themselves up for massive warranty replacements down the road. I'd give them some time here. If you're a Roadster owner, email your Customer Advocate and let him know you're thinking. Or, wait until the battery warranty details (and Supercharging infrastructure details) are actually available. At this point in time the 40kWh battery pack cars are about a year from being delivered - that's a lot of time for Tesla to finalize things. It's also a lot of time for you to decide which version you really want - or if you want a Model S at all. Tesla isn't going to make everyone happy with the Model S, and they know that. That's why they'll be producing other cars to appeal to other people.

 

[ckessel]

Well, rather than wait, I figured I'd give Tesla feedback now in hopes it'd be a data point for whatever they decide. I haven't quite abandoned my Signature reservation, but it seems likely. Here's what I wrote them, in case anyone else with a similar concern wanted to compare notes or try to reinforce a particular point in their feedback.

Edit: bugger, I got the wheel upgrade price wrong in my email ($3500, not 3750). The point still holds though the math is off by $250.
---

Sadly, unless there are meaningful changes still to be released, I would like to find out what happens if I drop my Signature reservation and go back to the general production queue. Where do I end up in the queue?

Some feedback, if desired, about the Signature pricing that bothers me:

1) The Sig surcharge. There was nothing ever indicated that the Sig would cost more for an equivalently packaged car. If anything, I expected a slight discount for putting so much money down up front. Roadster Sig owners have noted they got a slight discount over an equivalent base model, which makes this surcharge particularly a surprise.

I was an early adopter, showing faith in Tesla's solvency with a large deposit, and like most Sig holders I have been spreading the word. Many of us Sig holders hoped the Signature pricing would have a small nod of thanks for that early support. The surcharge leaves a poor aftertaste.

2) The Signature standard equipment is both odd and inflexible.

- The 2nd charger is required, which some people may never use. I can understand set packages of options _everyone_ can use, such as the air suspension, stereo, and tech, even if they don't care much about the option, but forcing the purchase of a 2nd charger that they might never use feels a bit like gouging.

- Further, there's no discount for any downgrades that may be desirable beyond the discount itself. For example:

- If I want the 19" aero rims, normally $1500, I've already paid $3750 for the premium 21" tires. To get the 19" aero tires I'm effectively throwing away $2250. If I want just plain 19" (because I don't like the aero look and want the advantages of 19" wheels), then I'm throwing away $3750. That's a lot of money either way and not giving back a discount feels somewhat disrespectful of Signature customer's expenses.

- Similarly if I want Black paint, I don't get back my $1500 premium paint cost. Again, it feels disrespectful to charge Sig customers $1500 for certain paints that base customers get for $0.

I feel Tesla should offer discounts for any option they allow to be downgraded.

I'm satisfied with the overall pricing structure of the options on the base model, but I think Tesla has made a significant mistake with above mentioned areas regarding the Signature.

...snip about 4 sentences specific to me...

I know any announcement has a flood of reactions and I very much hope this comes across as constructive rather than reactive. I wish Tesla the best of luck.​

 

[onlinespending]

2) The Signatures have a better interior than the non-Signatures, even if you opt for the leather option on the non-Sigs. They couldn't be specific, but essentially the gist was "better leather and more of it." There's also a white leather option that is only available on the Signatures. So Sigs a) arrive sooner, b) can have the unique multi-coat red, c) can have the unique white interior, d) have better leather and more of it, and e) have Signature badging to make the car more collectible in the future. You can decide if that's worth the $3550/$5000.

I'd be a bit upset if I put down $40,000 upfront for a Signature edition say 2 years ago. I feel like Tesla should offer these minor improvements over the standard edition at no additional charge for long-time Signature reservation holders. People that did so believed in the company when they were struggling simply to survive, and essentially funded their existence with what amounts to a huge no-interest loan. These people forfeited the chance to invest that $40,000 and make any interest on that money. They have more than "paid" for these minor extras AFAIC. This reflects poorly on Tesla, as they should do something a bit special for their early Signature holders.

In fact, it's a slap in the face for an early Signature reservation holder. Anyone can choose to get a Signature edition even today (as they have not yet filled the 1000 slots) and still get an early production unit, and get the same benefits of someone that put down $40 G's 2 years ago. That's simply not right, since Tesla would be in dire straits if it weren't for the early down-payments. They should at least waive the $3500/$5000 cost of Signature extras for anyone that made a down-payment prior to the pricing announcement.

 

[onlinespending]

- If I want the 19" aero rims, normally $1500, I've already paid $3750 for the premium 21" tires. To get the 19" aero tires I'm effectively throwing away $2250. If I want just plain 19" (because I don't like the aero look and want the advantages of 19" wheels), then I'm throwing away $3750. That's a lot of money either way and not giving back a discount feels somewhat disrespectful of Signature customer's expenses.

Yes, I feel the same way about the 19" wheels, even though I'm not a Signature reservation holder, nor would I consider being one now. Tesla should pass on the savings to its customers if they elect to get the 19" wheels. The 21" wheels are overrated and purely for aesthetics. With such large wheels and extremely low-profile tires, its a disaster waiting to happen with alignment, adding costs to maintenance and tire replacement. This can even lead to bowing and damaging the rims (I've seen it happen on my Dad's BMW). 19" wheels already provide rather low-profile tires, and any performance gains you main benefit from them.

 

[roblab]

I have heard that if you are a Sig reservation holder, you will be able to "de-option" on some things. So, for let's say, I don't like Red, Black, White, or Silver, I can de-option to a simple S color (Green for instance) and reduce my bill by $750. If that is true, you could de-option from 21" rims to 19" rims and only pay the lower price.

Please, if I'm wrong on this, I would like someone to correct me.

 

[AnOutsider]

I have heard that if you are a Sig reservation holder, you will be able to "de-option" on some things. So, for let's say, I don't like Red, Black, White, or Silver, I can de-option to a simple S color (Green for instance) and reduce my bill by $750. If that is true, you could de-option from 21" rims to 19" rims and only pay the lower price.

Please, if I'm wrong on this, I would like someone to correct me.

I'm not sure if there is any 100% official word on this, but so far it seems that's not the case.

 

[Mycroft]

You're wrong on this roblab. Sigs only have four colors to choose from and if we downgrade an option, like going to 19" wheels, there is no credit.

Actually, this is why they made the pano roof an option for the Sigs. They knew that there were quite a few people who didn't want the pano roof and would feel ripped off if they elected the plain roof.

 

[ckessel]

Actually, this is why they made the pano roof an option for the Sigs. They knew that there were quite a few people who didn't want the pano roof and would feel ripped off if they elected the plain roof.

Yet they made the 2nd charger non-optional and I suspect a significant number of buyers won't want that as they charge over night and thus the extra charger provides no value. Just some really strange choices in how they priced and optioned the Sigs.

 

[Dave EV]

People that did so believed in the company when they were struggling simply to survive, and essentially funded their existence with what amounts to a huge no-interest loan. These people forfeited the chance to invest that $40,000 and make any interest on that money. They have more than "paid" for these minor extras AFAIC. This reflects poorly on Tesla, as they should do something a bit special for their early Signature holders.

I thought deposits went into an Escrow account and collecting interest was not legal. At least that's how Aptera deposits worked. If I plunked down $40k 2-years ago I sure as hell would want to be sure that my deposit was put into an Escrow account so that if Tesla went belly-up for whatever reason I'd be sure to get my money back.

 

[strider]

Doug's number is correct. You should be comparing with the base as if the premium white was a required option.

I added $1,500 for paint in my numbers. I come up with $92,850 for an apples-apples non-Sig performance vs Sig performance. Maybe Doug's number is for non-performance?