Pricing/Option Aftermath: Still buying?

[WhiteKnight]

If the rumors on the Model X hold up (we'll find out February 9th) I will cancel my Model S reservation and reserve a Model X instead.

Model X Unveil When??

Per Barclays, the new Tesla Model X goes 0-to-60 faster than a Porsche 911 w/ more interior room than an Audi Q7. Avail 2H13.

The 'slowest' 911 goes 0-60 in 5.0s which means the Model X is 4.9s or lower 0-60 time.

I'll be blowing away all the people in Model S's (except Performance folks) with 3 rows of front facing seats and more room than a Q7!!!

 

[AnOutsider]

Yes, but keep in mind the pricing unveil that just happened. That's likely the top trim X and who knows where that'll be priced. If they can price it competitively with a cayenne turbo though, they'll be good.

 

[neroden]

So I stopped by Tesla Santana Row on my way home from work. As you might imagine, there's a lot of buzz about the new pricing and people's reactions. Here is some information I got that I believe is accurate:

2) The Signatures have a better interior than the non-Signatures, even if you opt for the leather option on the non-Sigs. They couldn't be specific, but essentially the gist was "better leather and more of it." There's also a white leather option that is only available on the Signatures. So Sigs a) arrive sooner, b) can have the unique multi-coat red, c) can have the unique white interior, d) have better leather and more of it, and e) have Signature badging to make the car more collectible in the future. You can decide if that's worth the $3550/$5000.

It's almost certainly not, for almost everyone. That's just frankly crappy. The Signature badging is worthless (see the Roadster). If you really love the red, or if you really love the white leather, I guess that might be worth it, but it's extremely steep for either. The "better interior" is desirable but almost certainly not worth it (unless it alleviates my allergy problems). The early delivery is worth money, but they've pushed the amount too high, especially given the answer to the below question:

5) On Sigs and Performance package, you can opt out of most options, but you won't get any money credited/refunded. So if you don't want the 21" wheels, get them anyway and sell them to pay for the 19".

Crappy, crappy, crappy, crappy. Why make us do this crap? I don't actually want to mess around with reselling wheels, and I suspect it's not the sort of thing most Signature reservation holders want to do either.

6) The standard adapter for the included UMC is indeed the NEMA 14-50. They don't know what the adapters for other outlets look like yet.

OK, well that's good to know.

Finally, my own observation is that Tesla is listening and doing their best to keep up with all the feedback. They have a very calm and understanding attitude about the reaction to the pricing announcement.

I think they need a somewhat more panicked reaction.

They believe things will settle down. They've had people cancel due to the pricing, but they've also had people put down new deposits now that pricing was available.

New Signature deposits? I bet not many, since you're paying a very large amount to jump the queue.

 

[smorgasbord]

It's almost certainly not, for almost everyone.

Different people like different things in differing amounts.

For me, a leather upgrade, and more real leather, combined with the very nice red color is tempting me to upgrade my reservation. I don't want the 21" wheels, though.

 

[neroden]

Different people like different things in differing amounts.

For me, a leather upgrade, and more real leather, combined with the very nice red color is tempting me to upgrade my reservation. I don't want the 21" wheels, though.

If you want the 19" aeros instead (as I do), that means your premium (over a standard with pearl white and leather) is $5550. (Assuming you're not thinking Performance, in which case the premium is different).

Now consider the cost of getting custom upholstery and a custom paint job -- yeah, doing both would *probably* run you more than that, I guess. I will probably actually have to price this out, as getting a Standard in plain white, repainting it (to a color Tesla doesn't offer), and getting custom upholstery would get me what I want, may be cheaper than a Signature, and would be *much* more collectible.

I didn't want to have to price this out right now, but I should probably start talking to the local car repainting and upholstery shops...

The problem with the high surcharge for the Signature is *precisely* that different people like different things in different combinations; making a surcharge over a fully optioned car guarantees that most Signature buyers are *both* paying for an option they don't want *and* paying a surcharge atop that.

 

[smorgasbord]

I will probably actually have to price this out, as getting a Standard in plain white, repainting it (to a color Tesla doesn't offer), and getting custom upholstery would get me what I want, may be cheaper than a Signature, and would be *much* more collectible.

Boy, are you in for a surprise.

Just try to repaint a car in a different color such that everything that was factory white is now the new color, and nothing that wasn't factory white is not the new color. That means removing trim, door hinges, door handles, gaskets, roof panel/trim, bumpers, badges, sill plates, etc., etc. Then doing prep work on the body (you don't paint over a clear coat). Then doing a high quality multi-pass paint job, including buffing the clear coat. Then reassembling the car and getting the alignments right. It ain't no job for no Earl Schieb.

 

[JRP3]

Yeah, a top quality aftermarket paint job done right would probably cost more than $5K, and since it's not factory original would be much less collectible. Don't know what an interior would cost.

 

[AnOutsider]

You could always vinyl wrap

 

[Robert.Boston]

New Signature deposits? I bet not many, since you're paying a very large amount to jump the queue.

If you take a gander at the Model S Tally thread, you'll see that new Signature reservations have been flowing in at a record pace. Of course, we don't know what the outflow has been.

 

[ckessel]

If you take a gander at the Model S Tally thread, you'll see that new Signature reservations have been flowing in at a record pace. Of course, we don't know what the outflow has been.

Even without the outflow, it's an impressive jump. As I noted in the Tally thread, that's to be expected. Releasing the pricing almost assuredly got a lot of eyeballs on the Model S page and some level of them converted into buyers.

Plus, the Sig jumping the queue has some real time value now compared to even 6 months ago. As an earlier Sig holder, the surcharge pisses me off, but as one fellow on the Tesla forums noted he'd be getting the maxed out non-Sig and thus the gas savings negates a good chunk of the Sig surcharge if he gets the car 6 months early. That makes perfect sense for him.

 

[neroden]

I know paint jobs are expensive, but -- y'know, I'm getting a really expensive car. I might as well actually get what I *WANT*, right? Tesla's color choices are kind of terrible, Signature or not.

After ten years of driving (the minimum I'm planning) the resale value of factory original paint is pretty questionable -- nobody has a paint job without damage at that point -- so I doubt it's even worth considering.

The difficulty of the paint job is another matter. I know someone meticulous who loves to do custom paint jobs, but usually on older cars -- so I question the problems of working with aluminum.

For the interior, I'm looking at doing work anyway, unless I can get an entirely polyester-free car from the factory. Door upholstery is traditionally relatively cheap (probably affordable within the amount I'll be saving), but I just realized I have to look into whether side airbags increase that price, because they might increase it a lot.

 

[eledille]

And I hope I find Model S still useful without 3phase support.

Consider carefully what happens if you don't. Model S will become less attractive with each new 3-phase charge point, because many other EVs become more useful. Whenever a 500 km, 3-phase capable premium segment EV hits the market, Model S without 3-phase support will be obsolete.

Even if I could do without 3-phase I wouldn't dare to buy Model S without support for it. Some years from now, 16 A three phase sockets on the outer wall or in the garage will be as commonplace as garden hose valves. How will that affect resale value?

If you intend to drive it until it falls apart, you don't need to recharge more than approximately 150-200 km overnight, and you don't need to extend your range during the day, then go ahead, I envy you. I'm going to wait for 3-phase.

Except for the 3-phase issue, I completely agree with Todd Burch's OP in "Putting Everything into Perspective". Model S is going to be awesome anyway, so the only things I really care about are range, price, and ability to charge efficiently and conveniently. I understand the frustration of the Signature reservation holders, though, and I think it would have been wise to state clearly that performance depends on battery size.

 

[smorgasbord]

Some years from now, 16 A three phase sockets on the outer wall or in the garage will be as commonplace as garden hose valves.

Tesla appears North America focused right now. Homes with 3-phase power are very very rare here in the States. With enough amperage (much easier to do) the 20kW chargers will fully charge the 85kWH battery in less than 5 hours. Long road trips will be enabled by the Supercharging infrastructure, as that appears.

It's interesting to hear that Europe's infrastructure is different. I'm sure Tesla knows about it, but right now I'll bet they're focused on making the first US deliveries successfully. Has there been any communication from Tesla when Model S will be shipping in Europe or Asia?

 

[JRP3]

Frankly an American company getting a loan from the US government needs to focus on the US market first.

 

[ckessel]

Frankly an American company getting a loan from the US government needs to focus on the US market first.

I would think they should focus on whatever brings the most money for the US.

For example, if a US company had an idea that mostly non-US folks would buy in droves, by the billions and create millions of US jobs, you wouldn't want the US government to support it because the market wasn't primarily in the US?

 

[NigelM]

Has there been any communication from Tesla when Model S will be shipping in Europe or Asia?

I don't recall reading anything from Tesla but automotive press has said Europe will start "late 2012" with Sig deliveries. See example here. Assume Asia will come after that.

 

[JRP3]

I would think they should focus on whatever brings the most money for the US.

For example, if a US company had an idea that mostly non-US folks would buy in droves, by the billions and create millions of US jobs, you wouldn't want the US government to support it because the market wasn't primarily in the US?

I can't imagine such a scenario, and in the case of Tesla there is high demand for the product in the US so it's not really an issue. There is a US market for the product, what you describe is no US market for a product. In that case, sure, sell away.

 

[Larry Chanin]

Frankly an American company getting a loan from the US government needs to focus on the US market first.

I would think they should focus on whatever brings the most money into the US.

Although I prefer loans to American companies, it also makes sense to loan foreign companies money to create American jobs.

Secretary Chu Announces Closing of $1.4 Billion Loan to Nissan

Washington D.C. --- U.S. Secretary of Energy Steven Chu announced today that the Department of Energy has closed its $1.4 billion loan agreement with Nissan North America, Inc. to retool their Smyrna, Tennessee factory to build advanced electric automobiles and an advanced battery manufacturing facility. The two projects are expected to create up to 1,300 American jobs and conserve up to 65.4 million gallons of gasoline per year - an amount equal to six times the oil spilled by the Exxon Valdez in 1989.

Regardless, although I think Tesla should seriously consider prospective European customer's requests for 3-phase charging, they need not spend a lot of effort in this area until overseas' deliveries are closer. However, being resistant to this feature at this early date Tesla may be jeopardizing overseas sales. It would be wise to announce receptiveness to providing this feature as an option at a later date.

Larry

 

[smorgasbord]

The more I think about it, the more I find Tesla's Signature options puzzling. I'm of the belief that Signature option inclusion was based on the realities of a new assembly line, plus maximizing profits.

So, I can see where the rear facing seats are optional. Easy to install/not install - doesn't affect the production line much.
I can see where paint options are limited - affects production line a lot.
I can see where infortainment and stereo options are required - big profit items.

But, I can't see why the panoramic roof is optional. I would think that's both a big production line option to have as well as a potential high/medium profit item.

I also can't see why the 21" wheels are required, as that would be one of the easiest options to logistically put in place (certainly easier than the pano roof). I guess that's a profit center for Tesla.

Any other insights on the Signature option inclusions? If I didn't have to get the 21" wheels (non-performance), I'd more strongly consider upgrading to a Sig. I'm OK spending more for the better interior on the Sig, btw, even though I know many others aren't.

What else is stopping others from upgrading?

 

[dsm363]

You don't have to get the 21" wheels with the Signature series, it's just that it appears Tesla will not give you any money back for going with the cheaper 19" wheels.

I think they may have made the panoramic roof optional as there are some people who simply don't want it.