Production vs. Conversion, Model S Drivetrain, EVTV coverage etc.

[Doug_G]

That's why I usually post a warning before banishing posts to snippiness. It's really hard not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

All too often a few people want to "get the last word in", but unfortunately that results in the nonsense continuing so I pulled the rip cord.

I'm not commenting on your particular post, but stating truth can still be snippy. Also simply quoting someone else's snippiness means yours gets banished too.

 

[qwk]

qwk didn't even say anything remotely unkind, not sure why his post was tossed. I only spoke the truth, but, OK, I get it.

I will say that for the most part OEM EV's are nicer than most conversions, including mine, which should not be surprising. We are mostly using components built in small quantities and not necessarily even made for EV use. It's fun and challenging to make them all work, sometimes frustrating when the components fail through no fault of our own, but it is a labor of love that 99.99% of all people will never have any interest in doing. Our tinkering will have much less impact than the work being done at Tesla and Nissan, no matter how much some may try to claim otherwise.

Thanks for the kind words, JP3.

I was only interested in hearing Jacks responses, as he made some very interesting claims that I have yet to see any proof of anywhere. Now he probably will never respond to the posts banished to the snippiness kingdom. Oh well...

 

[sranger]

qwk didn't even say anything remotely unkind, not sure why his post was tossed. I only spoke the truth, but, OK, I get it.

I did not think you or I said anything out of line either, but ok....

I know that many people that have seen my car have decided to take a look at the volts, leafs and even the Model S. A few have purchased or leased one as a result. Getting someone to ride or better yet drive an EV is a good way to get them thinking about the idea. Classic (and quirky cars like mine) attract attention. The last car show I went to had about 500 people looking at the cars. I know I talked to people all day about it and took many for a ride around the block. The quality of the components is getting much better every day. The systems from HPEVS are of excellent quality.

I just cant see how EV conversion are a bad thing. Especially when done well.

 

[A_RADIO_Volta]

Well I just got here because I was watching Jack's show this morning and got a kick out of him mentioning this dispute. Read it. I did.

Classy stuff.

I, personally believe in Tesla. On the other hand I don't believe in Jesus. That may seem off topic, but hang on it for just a moment.

There was a time when a Ford would run as hard as you could push it. It would do this day in and day out for longer than the owner would. This went for Chevy, Lincoln, Olds, Pontiac, REO, Cadillac... Time went on and the people who started the industry (often in garages) died off. Not to be missed though. There are always plenty more to take up the slack, roll up their sleeves and put in their best effort to improve society. They come to work to show that they are a part of something larger than themselves. Building something better is what they want to do. So, as the industry grew and bosses became more bloated in their hunger for what they think is their slice of the pie they would have revelations. They realized that dismantling the public transport system would force the general population to need cars more readily. They realized that liquid fuel would be more expensive and complicated method of distributing energy (two guesses who told them this). They realized that they could build products that would break in order to generate recidivism. And they chose to purchase on our behalf the inefficient system that would make life harder for all but themselves. Tesla told them not to. Many others told them not to. And they decided to put their interests above the good of all our interests. They willfully flooded the market with an unreliable, third rate product that was built to be discarded. Completely unchecked until the mid 1970's when Japanese cars began to emerge on the market. These maniacs were allowed to deliver death traps. By this time they knew we were entering a time when oil would become a point of contention and chose not to start finding alternatives for energy distribution. Instead, they continued to favor the system that they knew would lead us to a situation where they would have to rely on the people with their sleeves rolled up (to make life better for all) to go overseas and die. This is what keeps the liquid fuel flowing.

I believe in Tesla. Not so sure I believe in Tesla Motors. I get the feeling that Musk is on the right track, but as time goes on... Eventually, he'll be gone and the story will be left for disciples to sort out. Maybe they won't be self compartmentalized bosses we have known for so long. Maybe not the type of people who will make an icon of someone then pervert the real message they meant to convey.

Linux hackers will liberate the brain of the Teslacar. Jack will be much happier then, because he will get the level of control he wants. Maybe he'll be a little less cranky about making mean jokes at his daughter's expense. By the way, she's a grown up and I'm quite sure she knows the affection he means to convey when he says silly things.

Not as offensive as using the word retard. In any context. (YKWYA)

We voted for crap with our wallets because that was all there was on the ballot. In the mean time these poor schleps with their sleeves rolled up did what they were told and told themselves they were making the world a better place. Jack is an iconoclast who seems to have driven himself to do things the right way on his own terms. He is doing the right thing NOW. By not staying in a job that is desprately needed by a family with kids somewhere. Instead working diligently to inspire. Not a wanna be. YO.

The next Teslacar competitor will not have it's seeds in a board room full of business as usual MBA thieves. It will roll out of a garage somewhere. We better hope it does. Because we cannot afford to do business as usual anymore.

I'll close by commending all of the Tesla buyers out there with a very obvious jealous showing of my teeth. I will probably never have the kind of money it takes to get one for myself. I will, however, convert a car or two and keep an eye on the used market for a machine that has yet to be realized. X is what I need to haul my brood.

© Killavolta

 

[qwk]

Well I just got here because I was watching Jack's show this morning and got a kick out of him mentioning this dispute. Read it. I did.

Gotta love spin. First, Conversions are not the devil. If done right, they are great cars, and will get many looks. Conversions that are done right are not cheap. I don't think that point is arguable. The fact of the matter is, the majority of conversions aren't daily drivers, and definitely don't have enough range to be an only car.

This isn't about "Tesloids" being superior, it's about the simple economics of driving an EV daily, AND being the only car in the household. The resale value of a Tesla will ALWAYS be greater than a conversion someone dumps $70k+ into. There is so much less risk to go this way, that it just becomes a risk vs. reward argument if one truly wants to DRIVE an EV.

I bough my Tesla to use as an only car. I regularly let people drive it, just so they can experience it for themselves, as no words can really describe it enough. It will never see a car show or be on display. That is just silly. It's not a classic, it's an OEM vehicle that can and is being used for basic transportation.

 

[qwk]

Here is the link to the video where Jack calls Model S owners "gurlz", and where he waded in to this mess to show these gurlz the pecking order. LMFAO. Last time I checked, 99.9% of conversions don't have the kind of power a real gear head is after. That's like calling a Prius a hotrod. Lol.

evtv.me/2014/01/registry-custom-electric-vehicles-wormhole-stargate/

BTW Jack, here is Motor trends take on a Model S that you claim doesn't have the power I mentioned.

Motor Trend tests Tesla Model S, finds 0-60 in 3.9 sec and 100.7 MPGe - Autoblog


Like I mentioned before, I have and do have the capability to work on a model S. It's not about getting dirty, it's about recognizing a superior product and value. Just because it's OEM, doesn't mean only the manufacturer has the know how to do work on the car. This excuse reminds me of the carburetor vs. electronic fuel injection debate. Just because one person doesn't keep up with technology, doesn't mean that everyone doesn't keep up with it. Otmar is another publicly shown example of another person that can work on Elon's car, and he is far from the first.

 

[Doug_G]

Video is unavailable, and I'd really rather the "gurlz" thing not get continued in this thread. That's what got 2/3 of the thread moved into "Snippiness". Thanks!

 

[sranger]

My previous two cars were a 2008 Corvette and a 500hp 2005 Saleen Supercharged Mustang I installed the SC the day I bought it. My first car was a 1969 Chevelle SS with a 396. I have restored may car over the years. I think I qualify as a gear head....

However, speed is not the only enjoyment you can get from a car. My EVThing cost me a total of $28,000 and it is a delight (At least to me) to dive. It only has a 80-90 mile range (probably 70-80 in the winter) and only goes 0-60 in about 10 seconds...

However, it is hands down the most fun I have ever had with a car to this point.

I personally find your posts to be insulting to people who want to build EV's...

 

[qwk]

My previous two cars were a 2008 Corvette and a 500hp 2005 Saleen Supercharged Mustang I installed the SC the day I bought it. My first car was a 1969 Chevelle SS with a 396. I have restored may car over the years. I think I qualify as a gear head....

However, speed is not the only enjoyment you can get from a car. My EVThing cost me a total of $28,000 and it is a delight (At least to me) to dive. It only has a 80-90 mile range (probably 70-80 in the winter) and only goes 0-60 in about 10 seconds...

However, it is hands down the most fun I have ever had with a car to this point.

I personally find your posts to be insulting to people who want to build EV's...

Why insulting? $28k is a lot of money to build a "fun car" that only has an 80 mile range, and not much power. Most gear heads don't have that much money to spend, and if they do, they can easily build a 9 second 1/4 mile ICE street car for that. I like EV's, but there is no way that I would build a 10 sec 0-60 vehicle as a "fun car". One has to be realistic here. Performance EV's are much more expensive to build than an ICE, and when we are talking "fun cars" that only get driven a bit, there really isn't going to be much economic sense to build a performance EV.

I have built Turbo V8 cars for a long time, some with 1k HP. I'm not a stranger to performance either, but battery technology isn't anywhere near where it needs to be to build such an EV, unless you want very little range, OR have an unlimited budget.

Here are many examples of the kind of performance I'm talking about.

http://www.theturboforums.com/forums/225-Dyno-Results-and-Track-Times-Forum

 

[JRP3]

I think most of us who build EV's don't do so to get extreme performance, not by far. As you say it's much too costly to do so at this point in time, other than a stripped down dragster. The motivation is the challenge of the build and getting the experience of driving electric. I would say that even with the limited range of most conversions they are indeed the daily driver for most people who build them, since as we know the average daily miles driven is less than 40. On the other hand I know most people would not be satisfied with the range or performance of many home built EV's. Heck I'm not satisfied with mine and when components are available I'll probably upgrade it, or build something else, even if I own a factory built EV.

 

[dhrivnak]

If you want to do a conversion I highly recommend you attend one of Jack Rickard's EVCCON (Electric Vehicle Conversion Convention). It will be in August in Cape Girardeau Mo, right on the Mississippi river. They are a lot of fun and a wealth of knowledge. I have been to three and I have done three conversions. There are many great builds to see at EVCCON but very few can really compete with the Roadster in my humble opinion unless you are talking about maintainability. One can fix a conversion especially if you did it yourself. And yes you will have to fix some things. But where most conversions can swap a battery pack in a weekend, rebuilding a Roadster battery pack will be near impossible. But on resale value, speed and handling it is VERY hard to beat the Roadster.

It depends on what you want and what you value to determine what is best for you.

 

[sranger]

Why insulting? $28k is a lot of money to build a "fun car" that only has an 80 mile range, and not much power. Most gear heads don't have that much money to spend, and if they do, they can easily build a 9 second 1/4 mile ICE street car for that. I like EV's, but there is no way that I would build a 10 sec 0-60 vehicle as a "fun car". One has to be realistic here. Performance EV's are much more expensive to build than an ICE, and when we are talking "fun cars" that only get driven a bit, there really isn't going to be much economic sense to build a performance EV.

I have built Turbo V8 cars for a long time, some with 1k HP. I'm not a stranger to performance either, but battery technology isn't anywhere near where it needs to be to build such an EV, unless you want very little range, OR have an unlimited budget.

Here are many examples of the kind of performance I'm talking about.

http://www.theturboforums.com/forums/225-Dyno-Results-and-Track-Times-Forum

You seem to think performance is the ONLY way to measure the value of a car. True gear heads would laugh at that statement. I have seen many people painstakingly restore a Model A with a grand total of 40hp and spend far more than I did on my EVThing and enjoy ever minute of the experience. I have a customer/friend who built his own methanol 2000hp dragster it is beautiful and almost flawless... He constantly pesters me to stop by for lunch so he can drive my car. He is what I call a true gear head...

Maybe you do not realize it, but you sound very condescending and dismissive of anyone who builds an EV that cannot out perform a Model S. Furthermore, you seem to indicate that they are all of poor quality and of no value. I simply think that is wrong...

I took my EVthing to the park today for a walk... I had about 20 people looking at the car and took a couple for a ride. They seemed to enjoy it. I then took an hour long sunset drive down one of my favorite roads. I definitely enjoyed it...

Yep, according to you it is a complete waist of time and money because it is not a 9 second car...

P.S. Tesla more or less started from guys tinkering in a garage...

- - - Updated - - -

If you want to do a conversion I highly recommend you attend one of Jack Rickard's EVCCON (Electric Vehicle Conversion Convention). It will be in August in Cape Girardeau Mo, right on the Mississippi river. They are a lot of fun and a wealth of knowledge. I have been to three and I have done three conversions. There are many great builds to see at EVCCON but very few can really compete with the Roadster in my humble opinion unless you are talking about maintainability. One can fix a conversion especially if you did it yourself. And yes you will have to fix some things. But where most conversions can swap a battery pack in a weekend, rebuilding a Roadster battery pack will be near impossible. But on resale value, speed and handling it is VERY hard to beat the Roadster.

It depends on what you want and what you value to determine what is best for you.

I hope to see you again at EVCCON 2014..... Your Roadster is gorgeous. It twin is in the Marietta GA show room. If I was a little shorter, it would be mine now. The wife did go out of her way to point out that she fit very well in the car...

 

[qwk]

You seem to think performance is the ONLY way to measure the value of a car. True gear heads would laugh at that statement. I have seen many people painstakingly restore a Model A with a grand total of 40hp and spend far more than I did on my EVThing and enjoy ever minute of the experience. I have a customer/friend who built his own methanol 2000hp dragster it is beautiful and almost flawless... He constantly pesters me to stop by for lunch so he can drive my car. He is what I call a true gear head...

Maybe you do not realize it, but you sound very condescending and dismissive of anyone who builds an EV that cannot out perform a Model S. Furthermore, you seem to indicate that they are all of poor quality and of no value. I simply think that is wrong...

I took my EVthing to the park today for a walk... I had about 20 people looking at the car and took a couple for a ride. They seemed to enjoy it. I then took an hour long sunset drive down one of my favorite roads. I definitely enjoyed it...

Yep, according to you it is a complete waist of time and money because it is not a 9 second car...

P.S. Tesla more or less started from guys tinkering in a garage...

Comparing classic car restorations to major modifications of vehicle is apples to oranges. To each his own. I'm done with this circular argument.

Just curious though, if your VW is so great, and has plenty of range, why are you buying a Model S?

 

[sranger]

Comparing classic car restorations to major modifications of vehicle is apples to oranges. To each his own. I'm done with this circular argument.

Just curious though, if your VW is so great, and has plenty of range, why are you buying a Model S?

I love old and new cars..... True gear heads are just like that....

P.S. I went to the Tesla Store in Marietta Ga yesterday. Several owners and a couple of reservation holders asked the to give them a ride. I let one guy drive it. He is building an electric VW van. He is also buying a model S. They really seem to enjoy the car. Ther were also several Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche Owners were on hand. My car got just as much attention from the crowd...

 

[JRP3]

Something very different will always attract attention, that doesn't mean people actually want it. People are always very interested in my conversion, I'm quite sure few if any would want to buy it at even half the cost I have into it, or attempt to build their own. That's where Jack's claim that "People would stand on a Model S to look at his conversions" sort of falls apart.

 

[wycolo]

When I look into some newer DIY EV projects I'm impressed with the increasing variety of motors, adapter plates, controllers, etc. And the prices are not that bad such as motors for under $2500-. As they make more of these, features and reliability improve. Most people just want the car to putter around town at 35 mph for 30 mile range, i.e. 85% of motoring trips. $5k should more than cover this, at least the first stage using lead acid batteries.
--

 

[JRP3]

Lead acid just isn't worth the effort at this point in time, IMO. LiFePO4 prismatics are so much better and not that much more expensive than a top quality AGM lead acid, plus will last much longer, so over time they will actually cost less. I could replace the Odyssey AGM's in my six wheeler with lithium for the same price, maybe less when you factor in shipping for the heavier AGM's. Yes you can put together something cheap with low end floodies but you'll have to deal with watering them and terminal corrosion, and they probably won't last long.

 

[sranger]

Something very different will always attract attention, that doesn't mean people actually want it. People are always very interested in my conversion, I'm quite sure few if any would want to buy it at even half the cost I have into it, or attempt to build their own. That's where Jack's claim that "People would stand on a Model S to look at his conversions" sort of falls apart.

Cost is always going to deter people, but many people are starting new DYI builds in my area. Two also have a MOdel S on order. These are typically people who love older classic cars but want a modern twist on the build. Many of these old hotrodders are just bored with building the same old thing and are looking for somthing new.

The components are getting much better and this will make the DYI cars more attractive to a larger audience. I see this as more or less comparable to what you see in the hotrod after market area. Some people are always going to want to customize their cars.

Jack wants to promote electric drive. To do that he sees these builds as a way to spread the message. You are right in that many people are just curious about my EV Thing and would never buy or build one. However, several people who have ridden in my car have gone on to buy/lease the Leaf and Volt because they would not like an old car like mine but really liked the idea of an EV but had never really thought about it before.

A person like you or I who would actually build a DYI EV are probably something like one in a thousand or ten thousand. However I bet that people who have seen your build started to think about electric drive in a way they did not before.

 

[Doug_G]

I don't know why there's even a debate here. There's absolutely nothing wrong with DIY. There's absolutely nothing wrong with OEM. They both have their advantages and disadvantages.

For some people it's all about making it themselves. That's great! There's a huge sense of satisfaction getting something you built to work. As an engineer I am very familiar with that!

Of course most people aren't interested, or able, or willing to build a conversion and are going to buy an OEM car. Many will prefer an OEM car over a conversion. But those who have the inclination to build a conversion should have the full support of the EV community.

 

[qwk]

I don't know why there's even a debate here. There's absolutely nothing wrong with DIY. There's absolutely nothing wrong with OEM. They both have their advantages and disadvantages.

For some people it's all about making it themselves. That's great! There's a huge sense of satisfaction getting something you built to work. As an engineer I am very familiar with that!

Of course most people aren't interested, or able, or willing to build a conversion and are going to buy an OEM car. Many will prefer an OEM car over a conversion. But those who have the inclination to build a conversion should have the full support of the EV community.

Exactly. Like I stated before, there is nothing wrong with conversions. I don't know where some posters got this from.

Most people(even ones capable of building cars from the ground up), don't want to tinker and constantly work on their primary vehicle, especially one that cost as much as a good conversion will. Let's face it, most donor cars for conversions are older, and therefore probably less reliable. It's no fun to have to go to work for example, and finding out that there is a problem with your car, and the only one that could fix it is you. That is when an OEM car with a warranty comes in handy. It's someone elses headache.