Production vs. Conversion, Model S Drivetrain, EVTV coverage etc.

[dsm363]

Convert ICE to Electric

I simply see a ripple effect. When one person is encouraged to get an EV they show it to people at work and family members. We are interconnected more that most people realize.

To be honest I have been rather surprised at how people have completely dismissed and basically insulted the DYI EV movement in this thread. I find this interest in that they would likely not be a Tesla Motors without a few guys tinkering in a garage.....

Please point to where people have been insulting you or the DIY crowd? Just because someone says they don't think conversion cars will move the needle on adoption is just their opinion about how they see the market, not a personal insult or an insult to the DIY community. Every EV on the road is a good thing I think but many will look at that and say 'that is a project car and I want something from a major automaker'. That doesn't mean DIY cars don't have value.

Yet again, the DIY community does great work and someone seeing a conversion car at work mat inspire them to buy a Leaf or a Model S. That is entirely possible. Most people are very unlikely to go get a conversion car for themselves though. Unless the DIY community is producing 40,000+ cars a year (Model S and Leaf) people are more likely to see an EV from Nissan or Tesla at work. You seem to think these statements are hurtful so I won't engage anymore on this topic as that is not my intention.

 

[JRP3]

I can state that as a DIY EV enthusiast myself I'm not the least bit insulted by anything in this thread. I think it's entirely fair to point out that the influence of OEM EV efforts far outweighs the handful of DIY builds in the world. The EValbum has been around for about 15 years and it's showing 4826 vehicles, at least half of which are bicycles, lawn mowers, skateboards, etc, so maybe 2500 road going vehicles, and some of them are actually factory built EV's and not DIY projects. The DIYElectricCar garage has been around for 5 years or so and shows 419 EV's, again many of which are not road going vehicles, and some are cross listings from the EV Album. Jack's EV database claims 53 vehicles so far, though for some odd reason Jack forces one to register just to view the vehicles so not much of a promotion tool. Even if we double or triple the numbers to include vehicles that may not be on the lists it's still a tiny percentage of all the road going vehicles on the planet, with limited potential to influence anyone.

 

[JRP3]

I see Jeff continued his mischaracterization of this thread over on Jack's blog, which of course caused Jack to go off on another rant about how it's really the DIY crowd that's changing everything. He really does seem to feel the need to "rally the troops" at every opportunity. Somehow I manage to build EV's without Jack's cheer leading. An amusing read if you are so inclined: http://evtv.me/2014/01/registry-custom-electric-vehicles-wormhole-stargate/#comment-12523

 

[Doug_G]

Had a quick look. Weird how they are slamming Tesla Motors when they have nothing whatsoever to do with this thread. Also weird how they as slamming "Tesla owners" when his disagreement is with a couple of people who disagreed with him on this thread. It's so overblown.

Jack, the few people that have been "arguing" with you guys on this thread do not represent all owners. They do not represent Tesla Motors. They themselves also haven't been as dismissive of conversions as you claim. There's no need to be creating an artificial "us versus them" situation. We're all on the same side.

 

[jerry33]

I can state that as a DIY EV enthusiast myself I'm not the least bit insulted by anything in this thread. I think it's entirely fair to point out that the influence of OEM EV efforts far outweighs the handful of DIY builds in the world.

The one thing that DIY EV groups do, or at least the one that I belong to does, is attend various policy seminars that the local governments put on and extol the virtues of EV. I've yet to see an EV manufacturer at any of these types of meetings/seminars/etc. Talking to the local government officials that make policy helps them create EV-friendly policies, and may also help them avoid mistakes--well you can always hope.

I'd suggest the influence of DIY EV groups is far greater than the actual number of DIY EVs created. Car manufacturers have made EVs-for-everyone possible. DIYs help create an understanding of EVs.

 

[JRP3]

There's no need to be creating an artificial "us versus them" situation.

Except that seems to be what Jack likes to do on a regular basis. Every other EV forum besides his is "garbage" and he attacks them repeatedly.

The one thing that DIY EV groups do, or at least the one that I belong to does, is attend various policy seminars that the local governments put on and extol the virtues of EV. I've yet to see an EV manufacturer at any of these types of meetings/seminars/etc. Talking to the local government officials that make policy helps them create EV-friendly policies, and may also help them avoid mistakes--well you can always hope.

I'd suggest the influence of DIY EV groups is far greater than the actual number of DIY EVs created. Car manufacturers have made EVs-for-everyone possible. DIYs help create an understanding of EVs.

Tesla has done their fair share of EV advocating and education, as have Tesla owners. I suspect Nissan has as well. Sure we've had some influence as DIY builders and advocates but far less than Jack tries to claim.

 

[dsm363]

Wow. A lot of anger and 'they are disrespecting me' in those comments. Very sensitive and attacking the wrong crowd honestly. I don't deny their passion and decades of pushing EVs against insurmountable odds. It's just mainstream adoption would never be driven by them, rather by the mass market and we aren't even close to that yet.

 

[sranger]

You guys have the right to dismiss any contribution to the EV cause from the DYI crowd if you like. It really does not matter to me. I know that my one little built has at least encouraged hundreds of people to at least think about EVs in a way they never did before. At least four I know of went on to buy/lease one two have started their own builds. I am sure that they have influenced others to do the same. If you say that has little to no benefit, then I accept, but disagree with your position.

Many of the true insults were properly removed from this post. That is what I found offensive and quite frankly surprising.

I see no reason to continue to post about this as it is accomplishing nothing....

 

[JRP3]

You guys have the right to dismiss any contribution to the EV cause from the DYI crowd if you like.

You seem to have adopted Jack's tactic of exaggerating reality. As I said previously you mischaracterized what was being said here and you just did it again. No one is claiming that the DIY crowd has contributed nothing to the EV cause, we are just saying the influence is not as great as Jack pretends and is overshadowed by the sheer volume of what OEM's are and will be doing. Your position is similar to saying that ICE's became widespread because of the hot rod market, when in reality the hot rod market grew from an abundance of OEM vehicles. Soon the same will be happening in the DIY world when more OEM components find their way into our hands. Were some people working at Tesla DIY types? Sure, but that doesn't mean everyone in the DIY community gets to take credit for their work.

 

[dsm363]

Convert ICE to Electric

You guys have the right to dismiss any contribution to the EV cause from the DYI crowd if you like. It really does not matter to me. I know that my one little built has at least encouraged hundreds of people to at least think about EVs in a way they never did before. At least four I know of went on to buy/lease one two have started their own builds. I am sure that they have influenced others to do the same. If you say that has little to no benefit, then I accept, but disagree with your position.

Many of the true insults were properly removed from this post. That is what I found offensive and quite frankly surprising.

I see no reason to continue to post about this as it is accomplishing nothing....

It obviously does matter to you (I still haven't seen the insults you write about anyway). No posts were deleted by the mods and never saw any insults. Complaining about the 'Tesla heads' and crying foul when nothing insulting was said is over the top.

Again, please point out the insults. If someone attacked you personally we as mods will take care of it. It seems your feelings have been hurt be a perceived slight so likely nothing we can say will matter.

 

[JRP3]

A bunch of posts did get moved to snippiness starting somewhere around here I think: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/7777-snippiness/page54

 

[dsm363]

Ok. Some comments about Jack but not against the DIY community or their efforts on the EV front. He is defending his friend's honor but no one here is attacking the DIY community.

 

[sranger]

Please point to where people have been insulting you or the DIY crowd? Just because someone says they don't think conversion cars will move the needle on adoption is just their opinion about how they see the market, not a personal insult or an insult to the DIY community.

Here you go: I am sure this is the one that caught Jack's attention and set the tone of this entire post, it is still part of this post on the first page.

Not what I have experienced. The EV meetings I go to are peopled by engineer types who have spent hundreds of hours making their gas baby into an EV. When they are done, they have an electric car with low top speed (70 mph?) lousy regen if at all, heavy batteries, low range (30 - 50 miles), and a persnickety charging system. Their wives get stranded because something blows when she borrows it. The rest of the group are poor wannabes who keep thinking that they will be able to convert their 69 Ford Falcon for a few hundred bucks and be able to drive it on free public charging. In every case I have seen, you get what you pay for, *IF* you're lucky. Always you end up with an old car with out dated safety features, poor driving characteristics (due to heavy batteries installed where they weren't designed to go), bad wiring, rusting body, repaint, etc., etc.

 

[dsm363]

Convert ICE to Electric

Here you go: I am sure this is the one that caught Jack's attention and set the tone of this entire post, it is still part of this post on the first page.

You made it seem like there were multiple posts where people were personally attacking you and bashing the DIY community. You also said many posts were deleted which doesn't seem to be the case here given the post you use as an example is still in this thread. Most here simply seem to disagree about the importance they have in EV adoption. I don't think that qualifies as everyone here bashing you and the DIY community. The disagreement had been you said conversion cars have a major force in the movement from ICE to EV and most seem to disagree.

Also, are you saying most conversion cars consistently get over 100 miles of range, have a top speed of over 80mph and handle as good or better than their ICE counterpart? I've never driven one so I'm asking.

 

[sranger]

Also, are you saying most conversion cars consistently get over 100 miles of range, have a top speed of over 80mph and handle as good or better than their ICE counterpart? I've never driven one so I'm asking.

I NEVER said that... Most converted EV's with lithium batteries are in the 80-100 mile range like every other EV except for Tesla. They typically are capable of going well over 80mph though...

I gave you exactly what you asked for and you still refuse to accept that it is could easily be considered to be insulting to the DYI crowd. Several people agreed with this original post and that started the argument. As it escalate the tone of most of the post became more and more dismissive of any significant contribution that the DYI crowd had ever made to the EV cause.

Nothing else I can say at this point...

 

[dsm363]

Convert ICE to Electric

I NEVER said that...

That was the gist of the post you highlighted as bashing the DIY community. What are you saying then? While the post could have been written in a nicer tone it sounds like you agree that most conversion cars don't outperform the limits on specs he noted. If the range and speed he noted is fairly accurate then I am interested in how they are a major factor in converting people to EVs more than factory new cars from Nissan and Tesla.

Ok. Good luck to you. I'm sorry you think everyone one here dismisses the DIY community and doesn't value their passion. Some of us are just trying to put their impact in perspective when it comes to EV adoption. Tesla and Nissan already have much more influence in the adoption of EVs in less than 5 years than the last few decades of conversion cars. That doesn't take away from the work people did and the inspiration they may have given to engineers and others at Tesla and Nissan, just what I consider fairly evident. You disagree I take it.

 

[JRP3]

Here you go: I am sure this is the one that caught Jack's attention and set the tone of this entire post, it is still part of this post on the first page.

So why do you think a long term EV enthusiast is left with such an impression of DIY EV's? I don't fully agree with his characterizations but if that's what he's seen we can't tell him otherwise. With time we'll see better and better conversions, just as we'll see better OEM EV's, only they will be on a much larger scale.

Also, are you saying most conversion cars consistently get over 100 miles of range, have a top speed of over 80mph and handle as good or better than their ICE counterpart? I've never driven one so I'm asking.

I'd say most conversions do not get over 100 miles of range but probably do go faster than 80mph and do handle as well or better than their ICE counterparts.

 

[dsm363]

I'd say most conversions do not get over 100 miles of range but probably do go faster than 80mph and do handle as well or better than their ICE counterparts.

Thanks. Good to know. If that is accurate then the range (similar to the Leaf) mean its appeal is limited given that they don't come with factory warranties. Most don't need more than 80 miles of range on a normal work day but a large majority want more range than that especially if it is their only car. Given that I'd imagine almost no conversion cars can use CHAdeMO, upcoming CCS stations and certainly not Tesla's Supercharger network that limits adoption more.

I am excited to see what people are able to do with mods down the road with factory built EVs like the Model S. Someone putting in a more powerful motor, larger pack....etc years from now will be interesting. It is people with the skills from building EVs on their own that will likely play a big role in efforts like that.

 

[jerry33]

I'd say most conversions do not get over 100 miles of range but probably do go faster than 80mph and do handle as well or better than their ICE counterparts.

This is what I've experienced. 60 to 80 miles is pretty typical for range. Handling is fine. Not sure about top speed, but I don't see why they wouldn't go faster than 80.

 

[sranger]

That was the gist of the post you highlighted as bashing the DIY community. What are you saying then? While the post could have been written in a nicer tone it sounds like you agree that most conversion cars don't outperform the limits on specs he noted. If the range and speed he noted is fairly accurate then I am interested in how they are a major factor in converting people to EVs more than factory new cars from Nissan and Tesla.

Ok. Good luck to you. I'm sorry you think everyone one here dismisses the DIY community and doesn't value their passion. Some of us are just trying to put their impact in perspective when it comes to EV adoption. Tesla and Nissan already have much more influence in the adoption of EVs in less than 5 years than the last few decades of conversion cars. That doesn't take away from the work people did and the inspiration they may have given to engineers and others at Tesla and Nissan, just what I consider fairly evident. You disagree I take it.

He also said they are rust buckets, poor wiring, unreliable, unsafe and poor handling.... Which is most not true...

- - - Updated - - -

So why do you think a long term EV enthusiast is left with such an impression of DIY EV's? I don't fully agree with his characterizations but if that's what he's seen we can't tell him otherwise. With time we'll see better and better conversions, just as we'll see better OEM EV's, only they will be on a much larger scale.

I'd say most conversions do not get over 100 miles of range but probably do go faster than 80mph and do handle as well or better than their ICE counterparts.

My point is that in the last five years ARE seeing much better conversion. It was the wide spread availability of Lithium batteries and AC three phase controller that are making that possible...