Production vs. Conversion, Model S Drivetrain, EVTV coverage etc.

[dsm363]

Convert ICE to Electric

He also said they are rust buckets, poor wiring, unreliable, unsafe and poor handling.... Which is most not true...

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My point is that in the last five years ARE seeing much better conversion. It was the wide spread availability of Lithium batteries and AC three phase controller that are making that possible...

Sure but this whole thing started for me with your assertion that conversion cars are the driving force behind mass market EV adoption ahead of Nissan and Tesla.

And I'm glad you can point out why that is not accurate. That doesn't mean you needed to go post that all the 'Tesla heads' are bashing you and other EV DIYers. It's an Internet forum so you can find someone to write something against almost anything I'd bet. I would think you'd be excited about mass market EV adoption and the work Nissan and Tesla are doing to push EV adoption into the mainstream.

 

[sranger]

Sure but this whole thing started for me with your assertion that conversion cars are the driving force behind mass market EV adoption ahead of Nissan and Tesla.

And I'm glad you can point out why that is not accurate. That doesn't mean you needed to go post that all the 'Tesla heads' are bashing you and other EV DIYers. It's an Internet forum a you can find someone to write something against almost anything I'd bet. I would think you'd be excited about mass market EV adoption and the work Nissan and Tesla are doing to push EV adoption into the mainstream.

I know that the DYI guys are helping move the needle forward. Most here simply dismissed that...

It is what it is....

 

[dsm363]

Convert ICE to Electric

I know that the DYI guys are helping move the needle forward. Most here simply dismissed that...

It is what it is....

Moving the needle forward is far different than a major force. One person dismissed that here from what I can tell. Others have simply said the impact is not as big as you think. I don't see how that means the 'Tesla heads' are bashing all of your hard work. I think trying to label people here with a term like that doesn't help conversation or build goodwill either for what that is worth. If you want people to celebrate and recognize the decades of work your community has put into EVs you should educate not criticize even if some don't hold the DIY community in as high regard as you feel they deserve. Most simply have never seen or maybe even heard of an EV conversion car.

 

[sranger]

Moving the needle forward is far different that a major force. One person dismissed that here from what I can tell. Others have simply said the impact is not as big as you think. I don't see how that means the 'Tesla heads' are bashing all of your hard work. I think trying to label people here with a term like that doesn't help conversation or build goodwill either for what that is worth. If you want people to celebrate and recognize the decades of work your community has put into EVs you should educate not criticize even if some don't hold the DIY community in as high regard as you feel they deserve. Most simply have never seen or maybe even heard of an EV conversion car.

I call them the way I see them. This post started with a very negative tone toward the DYI community and has not deviated from that in my opinion.

I do try to educate people who care to listen when I can.

I promise I will not post here any more as I will not change your mind and you will not change mine. Any further post would be completely pointless...

 

[dsm363]

I call them the way I see them. This post started with a very negative tone toward the DYI community and has not deviated from that in my opinion.

I do try to educate people who care to listen when I can.

I promise I will not post here any more as I will not change your mind and you will not change mine. Any further post would be completely pointless...

We can agree on your last point. Good luck to you.

 

[brianman]

Had a quick look. Weird how they are slamming Tesla Motors when they have nothing whatsoever to do with this thread. Also weird how they as slamming "Tesla owners" when his disagreement is with a couple of people who disagreed with him on this thread. It's so overblown.

Jack, the few people that have been "arguing" with you guys on this thread do not represent all owners. They do not represent Tesla Motors. They themselves also haven't been as dismissive of conversions as you claim. There's no need to be creating an artificial "us versus them" situation. We're all on the same side.

Furthermore, I'm mostly on the sidelines on this one but I'm veering toward "against" people that try to make an issue out of a non-issue for, I guess, attention.

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Moving the needle forward is far different that a major force. .... Most simply have never seen or maybe even heard of an EV conversion car.

And here lies the crux of it, methinks. You both opened with the point of contention and offered an opinion.

Speaking for myself, I hadn't heard anything about the DIY EV goings on until I arrived at TMC.

 

[JRP3]

Thanks. Good to know. If that is accurate then the range (similar to the Leaf) mean its appeal is limited given that they don't come with factory warranties. Most don't need more than 80 miles of range on a normal work day but a large majority want more range than that especially if it is their only car. Given that I'd imagine almost no conversion cars can use CHAdeMO, upcoming CCS stations and certainly not Tesla's Supercharger network that limits adoption more.

Yes, at this point unless someone really wants the challenge of their own build or they have an ICE they really want to convert for some reason or another they'd be better off with an OEM EV. Problem is that choices are so limited and cars like the LEAF and Spark have rather poor styling which limits their appeal.

I am excited to see what people are able to do with mods down the road with factory built EVs like the Model S. Someone putting in a more powerful motor, larger pack....etc years from now will be interesting. It is people with the skills from building EVs on their own that will likely play a big role in efforts like that.

I think we are more likely to see people taking the motor out of a wrecked S and putting it in a smaller lighter car with a higher C rate pack. Might have less than 100 miles of range but it could be really fast. I think any longer range packs for the S are going to come from Tesla before anyone else.

 

[mknox]

Drivetrian Durability or Lack Thereof?

** Mods: Feel free to merge this with any of the other Drivetrain threads **

I thought I would post this a a new thread to discuss thoughts specifically on the Model S drivetrain design, durability and application in a heavy EV with so much instantaneous torque. I came across this article by Jack Rickard of EVTV Motor Verks where he speaks of the Model S drivetrain and problems people have been having. I think it's well written and fairly unbiased from a self-confessed Tesla fanboy. He makes some very compelling arguments around what could be an ongoing serious issue.

Thoughts?

 

[mnx]

It's hard to know just how many replacements are being done, and how many are for noise vs. outright failures. That said I feel somewhat lucky to have had no issues at all after 33,000km especially given my driving style.

** Mods: Feel free to merge this with any of the other Drivetrain threads **

I thought I would post this a a new thread to discuss thoughts specifically on the Model S drivetrain design, durability and application in a heavy EV with so much instantaneous torque. I came across this article by Jack Rickard of EVTV Motor Verks where he speaks of the Model S drivetrain and problems people have been having. I think it's well written and fairly unbiased from a self-confessed Tesla fanboy. He makes some very compelling arguments around what could be an ongoing serious issue.

Thoughts?

 

[paco3791]

well he has a round about way of getting there but it's true what he says, the forces on the gear box are no joke. That being said not everyone is having a problem and the roadster owners out there are having even less of a problem. Maybe it's just because the roadsters are lighter, not a gear box expert. I'm more inclined to the idea that this is one of those new car, new car-company growing pains issues. They'll get it sorted and hopefully do right by their early adopters in the process. That being said I fully intend to extend my warranty when the time comes, I don't mind being a Beta tester but having some insurance when things go wrong is probably prudent.

 

[iffatall]

It's hard to know just how many replacements are being done, and how many are for noise vs. outright failures. That said I feel somewhat lucky to have had no issues at all after 33,000km especially given my driving style.

Why do you distinguish noise issues from outright failures? Aren't they replacing the drive train altogether in both cases?

I read in an article a few days back (sorry, lost the reference), that the number of replacements is getting significant enough to affect Tesla's profits.

Hopefully, the fundamental design issues, if any, have already been identified and fixed in the current production.

 

[Kalud]

Great find, thanks for sharing. I also think its fairly unbiased. I hope they can find a solution that doesn't involve the 6 sec to 60mph part (aka slower power ramp-up).

I am still very confident they can get a viable solution, after they have brilliant engineers and the will to succeed.

In a shareholder point of view, I sure hope they can get something fairly quickly, the article mention about 35k cars on the road but its more like 45k (based on latest VINs). Extended warranty seems inevitable and its not a very good news... At least they can refurbish most of the drive unit (motor and inverter) and replace the differential. I don't expect the replacement to get in the $15k range after warranty based on that, with core exchange, but the drivetrain replacement is still takes many hours to do so labor + part...

Last time there was a similar threat (battery fire) Tesla made a bold move and decided to cover the car's replacement in case of battery fire. They could do some kind of unexpected move and cover the drivetrain against failures for 8 years... They are know for such big, unexpected moves, let's see...

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

I think that the S drivetrains are durable but the inverters are making noise. I have only heard of a couple of gear issues with drivetrains. The inverter has to push a ton of power through it, lighting inverters always(?) get much noisier after a while. Now the local lights use digital inverters (I think) and they are silent. not sure what the inverter in the S is like but I'd imagine it is just a big winding of copper?

 

[Gizmotoy]

I don't usually comment on article quality, but that was difficult to read being at times rambling and incoherant. Jumping between several topics and back, within the span of a paragraph or two didn't help. I was also a bit baffled by the assertion given the failures that the 4 year resale value of a $107k Model S is somewhere just above $5,700. I think most people would estimate that to be ludicrous.

But to the substance of the article, it's hard to say at this point if/how badly the drivetrain needs revised. Drivetrain lash (almost certainly the cause of the soft accel/decel clunk they indicate is a huge issue) is present in nearly all vehicles where the driveshaft doesn't directly work on the wheels. In an ICE, you're more likely to hear it in a manual, and more likely still in an AWD vehicle with multiple differentials, but it's there. There are even vehicles that seem to consider this noise a defining drive characteristic, given its prominence.

Further, it's foolish to assume that high torque and quick availability is some new discovery by the EV. Take, for example, a high-powered vehicle with a dual-clutch transmission. As the engine begins to wheeze at upper RPMs, you shift down back into the meat of your powerband. The next gear is already selected. Even in the pedestrian VW GTI, the shift is completed in 8ms, two orders of magnitude faster than the author claims. And if you have a transmission, you're stressing the parts in this way multiple times per acceleration run, versus once in the Model S. While the Model S is certainly heavy, there are many beefy cars out there with lots of torque and fast shifts. The problem is difficult, but not unique to EVs or the Model S.


The other issue sounds more serious, though I've followed the threads I can't say I've experienced it. The SC isn't permitted to replace portions of the drivetrain, so it's not surprising some people have had multiple replacements. Further, the fact that some people have had multiple replacements seems to indicate Tesla either hasn't yet found the cause, or that there isn't a good fix and they'd rather just try a couple until they get a good one.

I've been keeping an eye on the replacements, but its been rare enough so far that I'm not worried. If anyone's interested in selling their Model S for $5,700 in a year or two, let me know. :biggrin:

 

[paco3791]

I think that the S drivetrains are durable but the inverters are making noise. I have only heard of a couple of gear issues with drivetrains. The inverter has to push a ton of power through it, lighting inverters always(?) get much noisier after a while. Now the local lights use digital inverters (I think) and they are silent. not sure what the inverter in the S is like but I'd imagine it is just a big winding of copper?

Tesla uses a "digital" inverter. You may be thinking of a transformer which does some of the same things but in a much different way electrically. The only "big winding of copper" in the model S is going to be the motor itself. IAAEE

 

[Ampster]

I believe the motor has the windings. The inverter has a bunch of high power transistors.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

Tesla uses a "digital" inverter. You may be thinking of a transformer which does some of the same things but in a much different way electrically. The only "big winding of copper" in the model S is going to be the motor itself. IAAEE

ah. thank you. so ya, the lighting transformers get loud after time

"Electrical transformers and inverters perform similar functions. Transformers increase or decrease alternating current (AC) electricity from one voltage level to another. Inverters take direct current (DC) electricity as their input and produce AC electricity as their output. "

and no transformer in an S? digital inverter getting loud or something else, do transistors hum?

 

[ModelS1079]

mknox thanks for the interesting article.
following along.
will be interested to see how the good folks at TESLA address this over time.

 

[Treker56]

Based on this the S60 with its lower torque and acceleration is the model to own!? indeed, have not noticed any reports of drivetrain change done by 60 owners -- it has been mostly P85 and 85s (granted these are all anecdotal but still...)

 

[EarlyAdopter]

Here comes the short seller FUD campaign for the run up to this quarter's earnings report. We are all pawns.

Look, if this problem was widespread Tesla would be recording significant warranty expenses quarter after quarter. But they aren't. Tesla reserves roughly $3000 per car made for warranty claims. Over the last year their reserves have gone up quarter after quarter, not down.

I wish the author of that article had talked to the guy with 75,000 miles on his Model S, still on the original battery and drive train. See, selective sampling is fun!

There are so many inaccuracies in that article that even a tiny but of research would reveal that I'm not sure it's even worth the time to refute them all as clearly the author has a bias.