Production vs. Conversion, Model S Drivetrain, EVTV coverage etc.

[TonyWilliams]

I will add that not only is the Rav4 EV likely a higher failure rate (mostly due to all early production motor assemblies in a large percentage of the entire production run) but that it is also front wheel drive. That means it tends to light up the tires easily instead of loading the gearbox with accelerating the 4000 pound mass.

In addition, normally the torque is further reduced by default. In order to get near 300 foot pounds of torque, you have to physically push a "Sport" button. Which means it rarely is used by the entire fleet on a whole.

 

[JRP3]

How utterly cowardly - AND predictable. I think this pretty much explains the sorry mess the Tesla Motors Club has become = essentially an information free cess pool zone.

You mean like the way you banned me and removed some of my posts from your blog when I proved you were wrong about electrolyte voltage breakdown? Simply correcting your error got me banned. Pot, meet kettle. Like everyone, sometimes you make mistakes. However, you tend to go off the rails when it's pointed out. You've been doing it for years and getting yourself kicked off a number of EV discussion boards. Then you go on rants about how no one on any of those boards really know anything about EV's. Let's not pretend otherwise, the history is there for anyone to view.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

There is no way that even a handy person can work on their own car as Tesla will not release a manual or the specifications. So in a way I too am like Jack. I root for Tesla and I own one; and own stock. But they are not perfect and like any new company are going through growing pains. At least that is what we who have Tesla's FAR from any service center or SuperCharger feel many times.

I completely agree with these comments and suspect that the only affordable way to maintain our Tesla's will be with community ("DIY") knowledge. Tesla Roadster service in the UK has dropped off a cliff and I'm hearing a long stream of complaints from the new Model S owners here. Personally I just wish that Tesla would support the community and help us maintain our own cars... 'just' extend the patent give away to include servicing information!

I really like Jack's can do attitude and he has undoubtedly stimulated a large uptick of new "DIY" projects... projects which will deliver a network of knowledgeable engineers that will be servicing and upgrading our Tesla's in the future. Today I would love the option of having a third party maintain my Roadster because the Tesla warranty is probably worthless.

 

[dhrivnak]

That's exactly my point. $30k for a vehicle with about the specs of the Leaf. That's probably not counting the donor, and definately not counting your time. Now run the numbers for something similar to Tesla's range and power, and you will be kissing six figures in no time. Unless you are a tinkerer with a huge bankroll(it's not like you just run out and get a loan for this sort of thing), and love this stuff, it makes little sense.

I have said this before, and I'll say it again. If someone needs a manual to work on one of these cars, they probably do not have the expertise needed to not get hurt. About the only problems I can foresee is getting new firmware loaded to the car(which currently is one phone call away).

The $30 does include a donor and while the Leaf is a great car not everyone wants one. I converted a 97 Wrangler with full 4WD. The vehicle is quite cool and really resonates with the car crowd as it is a car they can see themselves drive. It is a fun top down vehicle with an 85 mile range and power to spin the tires. At $30k it is well south of a Model S and has a number of fun features you would never get in a Model S. Is is better no, but it is still a lot of fun. My other conversion was a 2001 Miata. After the conversion the weight balance was better than the initial gas version. It is fun sporty car with a nice retractable top that is a fun drive. Better value than a Leaf? Doubtful but a very fun and different car and try getting a fun two seat sports car that is all electric. You will EASILY pay double for used Roadster. Not everyone needs. wants or can afford a Tesla. This can be easily seen by Tesla's 15% market share of EV sales. People want options and a DIY gives one great options.

As for maintenance a manual saves MANY hours and has little to do with safety. At one point I could not open the hood of my Roadster. It turns out that if you jack up the car, remove the front wheel and wheel liner you can easily adjust the tension on the cable. Try finding that without a manual or help. There are thousands of people who perform their own maintenance and a manual, drawing or picture are EXTREMELY helpful. And by the way the firmware on my Roadster can NOT be updated over the air.

 

[JRP3]

And yes, you guys get six or seven technical things so mixed up it is a bit hard to unwind. Yes there IS a theory that it is the inverter. That's not to say the inverter is MAKING THE NOISE. It's that the inverter might be stressing the gearbox - via the slew rate. The noise itself almost undoubtedly comes from the gearbox. It is NOT a harmless sound. It leads to total failure if not addressed.

Or maybe there is some doubt since you have never presented any examples of a disassembled Model S gearbox.

The Rav4 EV only weighs about 4000 pounds, and is already torque limited to under 300 foot/pounds, yet still has a drivetrain "milling sound" failure rate on par, or even greater than the Model S.

The head of the Toyota Rav4 EV project called me last year (after I complained directly) and he considers that the problem is the inverter and not the actual gearbox. Having said that, obviously neither he nor his company has any direct interaction with the internals of Tesla supplied equipment.

 

[qwk]

You mean like the way you banned me and removed some of my posts from your blog when I proved you were wrong about electrolyte voltage breakdown? Simply correcting your error got me banned. Pot, meet kettle. Like everyone, sometimes you make mistakes. However, you tend to go off the rails when it's pointed out. You've been doing it for years and getting yourself kicked off a number of EV discussion boards. Then you go on rants about how no one on any of those boards really know anything about EV's. Let's not pretend otherwise, the history is there for anyone to view.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. There is a whole lot of hypocrisy going on here. Saying that TMC is a cesspool etc. because of moving posts, doesn't hold much weight when the person screaming that, censors his own website by completely removing content that doesn't make him look good.

 

[qwk]

Or maybe there is some doubt since you have never presented any examples of a disassembled Model S gearbox.

Exactly. He backed up his statement by saying that he twisted some steel shafts with some electric motors. Big whoop. I can show you pics of twisted input shafts from ICE transmissions that came from unmodified cars too. Transmission parts are made in many different strength varieties. The input shaft in my built transmission is made to handle AT LEAST 1200RWHP(for some silly reason they rate it in HP). I have done dozens of full power trans brake launches with slicks, and it hasn't missed a beat. Strong quality parts are definitely available, and from looking at the beefiness of the Tesla axles, I have no doubt that the gearbox is made to handle some serious loads. Unless one has dug into a broken drive unit, how can anyone say something with absolute certainty though? They can't.

 

[digitaltim]

Who is Jack?

 

[dsm363]

Who is Jack?

He seems to be a person is angry at Tesla and Telsa owners (he says he owns one himself). He runs a DIY EV website.
Jack Rickard

He might be Russian from his Twitter postings. @evtv

Wow. Read this.
Milling Through the Mire - Tesla Model S Drive Unit Woes. - EVTV Motor Verks

'tesloids'. 'Fanboyz'. Real objective there Jack. And what does some owner stepping on the wrong pedal have to so with the transmission issues?

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

 

[dhrivnak]

As you can see there are some very nice quality builds there. I have been to the convention 3 times now and it is always an eye opener.

 

[jrickard]

You mean like the way you banned me and removed some of my posts from your blog when I proved you were wrong about electrolyte voltage breakdown? Simply correcting your error got me banned. Pot, meet kettle. Like everyone, sometimes you make mistakes. However, you tend to go off the rails when it's pointed out. You've been doing it for years and getting yourself kicked off a number of EV discussion boards. Then you go on rants about how no one on any of those boards really know anything about EV's. Let's not pretend otherwise, the history is there for anyone to view.

It is all there to view JRP. And your characterizations are a deliberate and malicious lie. I've never been kicked off of any board anywhere. I've resigned from several cess pools that you love to inhabit. And have had to DEMAND my account be closed on several occasions when they simply refused to do so when requested nicely.

You took something entirely out of context, twisted it into a ridiculously juvenile "aha - gotcha" that didn't even make logical sense, much less technical sense and I gave up trying to deal with you on it. Some just aren't trainable. Your ongoing confusion about voltage, batteries, and electrolytes cannot be cured from the outside. You'll have to read up on it as best you can.

But I think you've found another home here.

Jack Rickard

 

[JRP3]

Yes Jack, it is indeed all there to view, except of course the posts of mine you deleted from your blog. However some remain.

JPOctober 15, 2011 at 8:04 PM
Jack,
You mention that higher voltages when charging do no damage if the cell is not full:

"I can make the cell voltage 10v for 10 seconds and it does nothing to the cell."

but if you are above 4.5V aren't you above the breakdown voltage of the electrolyte, and therefore potentially damaging the cell?

Jack RickardOctober 15, 2011 at 11:13 PM
No. The electrolyte has NO "breakdown voltage" This is a preposterous notion. Electrolyte deterioration is solely a function of heat - and perhaps something we do not have diagrammed well at the intercalation point as this is where breakdown components seem to migrate. The electrolyte has no cognizance of "voltage" and it has no effect on electrolyte whatsoever.

Of course you were completely wrong, as I went on to prove, using references that you yourself supplied, but apparently failed to read, or understand.

http://ephase.blogspot.com/2011/10/battery-electrolyte-breakdown-voltage.html

Here is Jack "not banning" me from his blog:

Jack RickardOctober 17, 2011 at 9:30 AM


I don't know what you'r on about, but I AM going to ask you one final time to take it somewhere else.

Jack Rickard

My response:

JPOctober 17, 2011 at 1:11 PM
Fine, I'll simply end with this, go to the 50 minute mark in Jay's video and listen as he talks about electrolyte solvent breakdown above 4.3 volts, equivalent to water electrolysis at 1.3 volts, and then continue to pretend voltage doesn't cause electrolyte to break down independent of heat. Feel free to assume Jay has no idea what he's talking about.

You'll see in the link to the discussion on my blog that Jack followed me there, to complain that my blog was anonymous and had few people reading it, as if that had anything to do with the discussion.

Jack RickardOctober 21, 2011 at 10:06 AM
I see we have hundreds of comments here on your bizarre vendetta. I have asked you to leave our blog, and now I have enforced that. I don't know WHAT you are on about JP, but I'm not having it any longer.

Interesting way you have of not banning me I guess that means I'm welcome to comment on your new blog? :biggrin:

 

[dsm363]

Welcome back Jack. Always great to hear your insightful comments.

 

[SmartElectric]

Resurrecting this old thread to point out this truly interesting video Jack put up recently where the Tesla drive train on their test bench is controlled and monitored. Very very cool. Will make for some interesting EV conversion builds to have a powerful and capable drive system such as this:

 

[gavine]

New video where they take a Tesla drivetrain apart and show the cooling loops, bearings, etc. Good stuff:

 

[JRP3]

As I noted in the comment section I don't think his theory of bearing failure holds up because Tesla uses ceramic bearings.

 

[qwk]

As I noted in the comment section I don't think his theory of bearing failure holds up because Tesla uses ceramic bearings.

And this prevents them from failing how? Look, I have had strong words for Jack(in this thread of all places), but he is the man when it comes to developing a Tesla aftermarket. He has obviously put an insane amount of money and effort to the cause, and you have to give credit where credit is do. Holding a grudge forever because of a personality clash is stupid.

I applaud Jack, and his crew, as this is a huge project and task, in which they are clearly succeeding. It may take some time, but all of this hard work will pay off. Thanks Jack!

 

[JRP3]

And this prevents them from failing how?

It prevents them from failing in the manner Jack describes in the video, i.e. induced electricity flow through the bearing. Ceramics don't conduct electricity. His theory is flawed because of simple physics. Jack often comes up with theories that don't fit the known facts, and he should know better.