Project Better Place

[mgemmell]

Can I just say that I think that all this back and forth is ridiculous. What is really necessary for BP to succeed? The ability for it to handle multiple types of cars across different models and manufacturers. That's really it. The advantage of a battery swap cannot be overstated. It makes the EVs as practical and convenient as any ICE. The disadvantage is, it only works for 1 car right now. The advantage of the charging networks, they deploy faster and can work with any EVs. So who will win? If battery standardization can occur, the BP model will be the best. Do I think it will occur, no, because different EVs will want different size and spec batteries and manufacturer consensus won't occur as it undercuts their ability to 1 up the competition. I may be wrong, and battery standardization may occur. I have no problem with that. Batteries may get better to the point where it is unnecessary, I also have no problem with that...

+1 that. Posted similar feelings a while back here and here.

Why is this argument carrying on? (I guess you guys just enjoy arguing - hey, its a free world).

The convenience of battery swap are clear. BP's implementation is good but a little closed, but battery swap is not exclusive to BP. This business surely has to be a great opportunity for current service station chains. They will enter and compete with BP one day I suspect.

Charging on the road, especially overnight or over-lunch in nice places (hotels and restaurants, NOT petrol stations) is excellent too. Home charging will always be popular for those of us in the 1% that have a private garage with metered power. Please just bear in mind though that most cars in the World belong to people living in apartments. Given the difficulty finding a parking place near your home in most cities battery swap is the only option for them.

Why? We are setting up a "charging corall" in the centre of our town that will use a supermarket car park that's normally empty at night. That's for people who can't charge during the day at work, library, supermarket, pub, restaurant, gym, car park, etc., etc.

Can't see this being popular. The walk back home at night from the supermarket (they close >22.00) might make this rather unattractive, as would the walk in the morning before they open. For most folks in Madrid the nearest potential "charging coral" (empty car park at night) is a taxi or metro ride away.

A weekly or twice weekly battery swap would be a lot less hassle IMHO.

However, *most importantly* battery swapping also opens up the chance for battery improvements to be seen by consumers in days rather than after 150,000kms, or 8 years in the case of the Model S. An agile market place with standardised battery pack formats will stimulate battery pack suppliers to compete to improve the technology and in such an open, competitive market innovation can really happen.

For this reason alone we, EV users, should encourage battery pack standardisation and battery swapping: An open competitive market in batteries is the best thing that could happen to the whole EV World. It is not in our interests as consumers that each car has its own format of battery. Better that there be 3 or 4 standard sizes, all in the floor pan (the best place for a battery), and all with standard cooling and power connections. We all know batteries are the place where most innovation is needed, so that's where market forces need to be strongest.

Think of the IBM PC and how hardware advanced thanks to standardisation there.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Can't see this being popular.

You don't think priority parking in the middle of town will be popular? We already have people who have said they will buy an EV just because parking in the town is so difficult.

For most folks in Madrid the nearest potential "charging coral" (empty car park at night) is a taxi or metro ride away.

So you don't have any offices, libraries, public buildings, shops, with empty car parks at night? All you need is a little imagination...

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

For this reason alone we, EV users, should encourage battery pack standardisation and battery swapping: An open competitive market in batteries is the best thing that could happen to the whole EV World.

I disagree... I want innovation not standardisation.

Think of the IBM PC and how hardware advanced thanks to standardisation there.

That's a myth... ISA bus and PCIe have nothing in common for example.

 

[edwargo]

Eventually, batteries will gravitate to a few standards, but it's a bit of chaos until then.

I think battery swap service providers would eventually determine which standards remain by which are stocked and which aren't.

 

[Robert.Boston]

Eventually, batteries will gravitate to a few standards, but it's a bit of chaos until then.

I think battery swap service providers would eventually determine which standards remain by which are stocked and which aren't.

I agree with Kevin Sharpe that the first point is unlikely in the foreseeable future: I do not foresee the day before 2030 when different EV manufacturers agree on standardized batteries. First, the battery is too large not to be a structural component, and so standardization requires working on a limited set of form factors. Second, battery chemistry and maintenance is and is likely to remain a competitive advantage among OEMs.

I guess the truth of your statement is linked to what you mean by "a few" -- Tesla will have "a few" (Roadster, Model S/X, GenIII), and other EV manufacturers will have a different "few".

Your second statement, @edwargo, is what I really find scary about the battery-swap business model. If BP or the like can kill an EV manufacturer's ability to succeed in the market by deciding not to stock its batteries, that will stifle innovation. Ergo, I don't want the battery-swap approach to become the norm.

 

[brianoflondon]

I agree with Kevin Sharpe that the first point is unlikely in the foreseeable future: I do not foresee the day before 2030 when different EV manufacturers agree on standardized batteries. First, the battery is too large not to be a structural component, and so standardization requires working on a limited set of form factors. Second, battery chemistry and maintenance is and is likely to remain a competitive advantage among OEMs.

I guess the truth of your statement is linked to what you mean by "a few" -- Tesla will have "a few" (Roadster, Model S/X, GenIII), and other EV manufacturers will have a different "few".

Your second statement, @edwargo, is what I really find scary about the battery-swap business model. If BP or the like can kill an EV manufacturer's ability to succeed in the market by deciding not to stock its batteries, that will stifle innovation. Ergo, I don't want the battery-swap approach to become the norm.

The only way BP can "kill" another EV in a market is by offering a service that makes fixed battery ownership less attractive. Israel is no test because nobody is bringing any other plug in cars. Denmark and Australia will be different. That's when we'll see. My return trip last night to Jerusalem wouldn't have been possible in a Leaf. I wouldn't have been able to spare 30 mins on the way up for a fast charge. I wouldn't buy a Leaf no matter how cheap the electricity for it is.

If by some miracle someone built a fast charger on the crowded, difficult to park residential street in Jerusalem where my car stood for an hour, great. Otherwise I would have not made it up the small hill to leave Jerusalem.

I know, I know no problem for the big S.

 

[JRP3]

Exactly Robert. Standardization of packs equals the death of innovation and flexibility. The thing is if people without plugs take up EV's in large volume and count on swapping to meet their daily needs swap stations will never be able to keep up with demand. An inner city swap station would not be able to physically stock enough batteries to cover the the hundreds to thousands of cars visiting them each day, especially if there is more than one type of pack. It's a dead end.

 

[WarpedOne]

PBP master plan could work in USSR 50 years ago. All fit into one size.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Your second statement, @edwargo, is what I really find scary about the battery-swap business model. If BP or the like can kill an EV manufacturer's ability to succeed in the market by deciding not to stock its batteries, that will stifle innovation. Ergo, I don't want the battery-swap approach to become the norm.

That's probably the main reason why almost all manufacturers do NOT want to work with BP.

Phone manufacturers also struggle to keep control vs. cell phone carriers. Most have all their phone specs and even the software dictated by the carrier and that's a scary model for the car manufacturers. And the major difference is with the BP model, you don't own the battery (unlike with the phone, which is just subsidized), so even if a competitor comes up, it's difficult to switch (esp. if they don't carry batteries compatible with your car). The only attraction is that it allows you to sell the car at a lower price and that it may attract customers that otherwise would not buy a car from you (probably why Renault partnered with BP).

I think most people against BP are against the model, not battery swapping itself (which has very obvious benefits).

And about the point of battery swapping being a solution for apartment dwellers, at least for BP's version it's not. BP requires you to have access to overnight charging as a condition to sign up with their network. The swap stations are not designed to handle demand that otherwise would be provided by overnight charging, it's designed to handle occasional demand that overnight charging can't cover (much like most rapid charge stations). If it had to handle overnight demand, the batteries required at such a station would increase by an order of magnitude.

 

[WarpedOne]

Apartment dwellers could/will use quick charging facilities at supermarkets, cinemas and such big "public centers".

 

[WarpedOne]

And at least for the first few years this quick charge service will be free of charge to the EV driver.

 

[rolosrevenge]

I believe there may be a misunderstanding here. The BP model does not require any battery standardization. It only requires the battery to be dropped and loaded from below. A BP station can handle multiple different battery standards and stock many types of batteries.

The current reason BP only works with Renault is just that generally other manufacturers haven't made their pack swappable.

But that's where it gets prohibitively expensive. BP may have to keep 20 different battery types around, and multiple of each, without knowing if any of that type of car will EVER frequent that particular station. Any manufacturer could say "BP compliant" with a new model, and then BP has to buy hundreds of new batteries. I don't see it happening without battery standardization and I don't see battery standardization happening. But if i does, all the better.

 

[brianoflondon]

But that's where it gets prohibitively expensive. BP may have to keep 20 different battery types around, and multiple of each, without knowing if any of that type of car will EVER frequent that particular station. Any manufacturer could say "BP compliant" with a new model, and then BP has to buy hundreds of new batteries. I don't see it happening without battery standardization and I don't see battery standardization happening. But if i does, all the better.

I don't think it will get to the point of so many different packs. In fact I think more standardisation will come from NOT retr0fitting existing ICE cars. Right now the Leaf and Fluence have almost identical batteries in all but shape. It's pretty obvious that the best place for a battery IF you design the car from the ground up, is flat on the floor. Better Place did have more manufacturers interested in 2008 but the financial crash scarred all but Renault away.

The only thing that will change this is sales. If Israel and Denmark (and then Australia) show significant support for battery switching, the manufacturers will be back to talk to Better Place. They just can't ignore the market for EVs and if it's clear that battery switch drives higher uptake, they'll get on board.

In fact, the little graphic that Better Place show me in the car while the battery is being swapped shows a completely flat battery being taken away and replaced! This is not the correct shape of the way too tall pyramid shaped battery I have behind my rear seats.

While we do know the Zoe can support battery switching, there is something that has stopped Renault and Better Place actually confirming this. It's probably down to the status of the 100,000 Fluence ZE cars Better Place have ordered.

But at least in Australia the Holden Commodore with battery switch is well into development. It's looking very cool and if it makes it to production, I'd lobby hard to get it brought to Israel!

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Better Place did have more manufacturers interested in 2008 but the financial crash scarred all but Renault away.

Renault 'won' the order to produce a car that met the BP requirements... I don't think they would have produced a Fluence with slow charging without BP.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

While we do know the Zoe can support battery switching, there is something that has stopped Renault and Better Place actually confirming this.

It's very simple... Renault will only 'support' the idea of Battery Swap on the Zoe if BP place an order for the car... no order, no battery swap.

 

[edwargo]

Renault 'won' the order to produce a car that met the BP requirements... I don't think they would have produced a Fluence with slow charging without BP.

Yep, this is probably correct. Although, the next gen Fluence ZE will probably have the chameleon charger from the Zoe, so that's a problem solved.

It's very simple... Renault will only 'support' the idea of Battery Swap on the Zoe if BP place an order for the car... no order, no battery swap.

I don't think that's the case, the car has been engineered with battery swap in mind as well without any BP order. I don't think that at this point, BP have to make an order with manufacturers. In fact, to make their business case seem viable, they actually have to succeed with the Fluence first, then have car manufacturers scrambling to produce cars with swapping. Selling cars isn't really supposed to be a part of their model.

Also, obviously, they have 115K cars to sell in the next 5 years, a tough proposition already and a lot of work on their hands without a "competing" swap capable car.

 

[rolosrevenge]

I don't think it will get to the point of so many different packs. In fact I think more standardisation will come from NOT retr0fitting existing ICE cars. Right now the Leaf and Fluence have almost identical batteries in all but shape. It's pretty obvious that the best place for a battery IF you design the car from the ground up, is flat on the floor. Better Place did have more manufacturers interested in 2008 but the financial crash scarred all but Renault away.

Clearly they'll all be in the floor, but they'll be different sizes and shapes. A compact will not have the same shape and size battery as a mid size sedan, or a full sized sedan, or a full sized pickup. Then there is the chemistries andd ifferent voltages and different power requirements. A full sized sedan like Model S needs different pack sizes for different performance specs (not including range). So, when you factor in sizes (compact, mid, full, full pickup) and performance (economy car, sports sedan, sports car, pickup) and battery internal voltage, you could easily get 20+ different type of packs unless standardization occurs, and even then, there will still be a lot of different types.

 

[vfx]

Battery standardization is delusional.

Cameras all have different battery sizes, shapes and voltages, same for Cell phones and MP3s, they even different batteries for devices within the same manufacture.

How about car batteries?. You know the lead ones? Go into an autoparts store and see the wall of "standards"! As was said above with batteries not only dictating the car interior, weight, range, and handling, of it's host vehicle, there is no way any maker is going to compromise all the above given the options available. Better just to contribute a coupla of million to a fund of programs like Kevin's. Money better spent.

And you can bet the biggest player in the EV space, Tesla who totally ignored the US standard J1772 plug will never standardize any more than Apple.

 

[Johan]

Battery standardization is delusional.

Cameras all have different battery sizes, shapes and voltages, same for Cell phones and MP3s, they even different batteries for within the same manufacture.

How about car batteries?. You know the lead ones? Go into an autoparts store and see the wall of "standards" as was said above with batteries not only dictating the car interior, weight, range, and handling, of it's host vehicle there is no way any maker is going to compromise all the above given the options available. Better just to contribute a coupl of million to a fund of programs like Kevin's. Money better spent.

And you can bet the biggest player in the EV space, Tesla who totally ignored the US standard J1772 plug will never standardize any more than Apple.

So very true, I've been thinking the same when seeing the earlier posts about future standardization. Why would that ever happen? These are not AA or AAA batteries we're talking about and it cannot be compared to liquid gasoline or diesel. The car battery is a part of the frame/chassis and has structural functions way beyond it's energy storage/delivery function, of course it will never be standardized. The actual battery cells are standardized already, like the Panasonic one's Tesla is using (found in laptops etc.) but the whole PACK will never be standardized IMO.

 

[VolkerP]

I beg to differ. Standardization may occur regarding the battery form factor. Or even modular designs, like 2 packs under Toyota RAV4 EV. Manufacturers must agree on a protocol how a car can disconnect from its battery pack, i.e. if the swap station is required to engage any tools. Think of a swap station in the movie 5th element, I see no problem in swapping and charging arbitrary form/size/capacity battery packs. And Elon surely extends the frame of what seems possible today.