Project Better Place

[TEG]

Thanks, VFX. That is a very "cool" development for us NorCal EV fans.

The article talks about "110V" as "low voltage".
I see the term "low voltage" used to describe 12V halogen lighting stepped down from 110V, so talking about 110V as "low voltage" seems a little weird.
Basically if it can shock me when I touch it I don't like to call it low voltage!

Looking online I find NEC Defintion of low voltage: "voltage between 50 and 600 V. [SEMI S2-91]", so even the Tesla 240V@70AMP is still technically "low voltage". I suppose the term has relative meaning depending on what you are describing in compared to something else.
From the NECs perspective, homes and businesses only ever deal with low voltage unless you are a power company running "high tension" distribution lines.

 

[dpeilow]

Better Place to Build First U.S. Electric Vehicle Network in Bay Area Earth2Tech

 

[DDB]

Better Place to Build First U.S. Electric Vehicle Network in Bay Area Earth2Tech

Wow...that's a lot of money. I understand the Bay Area wants to be the pilot project of the Nation, but why not start it on a smaller scale? Couldn't they do it for 100 m. or so for swapping stations--just a few like they are doing with hydrogen stations? I mean really, how many EVs--compatible with PBP's stations will be on the road by 2010?

 

[vfx]

I like the end (paraphrased),

No noise, no engine, no tailpipe, no emissions. It's a no brainer.

 

[graham]

Hawaii endorses Better Place

Couldn't figure out if this should go in a Project Better Place thread or maybe that talk Martin gave a year or so ago to Hawaii explaining why it was a great place for electric cars. Mods: Please move this if appropriate.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/technology/start-ups/03hawaii.html?_r=1&em=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1228406677-ABXYwwlunptB+tWJDMo6OQ

The State of Hawaii and the Hawaiian Electric Company on Tuesday endorsed an effort to build an alternative transportation system based on electric vehicles with swappable batteries and an “intelligent” battery recharging network.

The plan, the brainchild of the former Silicon Valley software executive Shai Agassi, is an effort to overcome the major hurdles to electric cars — slow battery recharging and limited availability.

By using existing electric car technologies, coupled with an Internet-connected web of tens of thousands of recharging stations, he thinks his company, Better Place L.L.C. of Palo Alto, Calif., will make all-electric vehicles feasible.

 

[vfx]

I love the idea of millions of worldly (and redneck) island tourists learning the perfection of Electric cars. The furtive manner it which it will spread will be sublime.

 

[dpeilow]

Israel pilots electric car network | World news | The Guardian

CTV.ca | Startup company wires parking lot for electric cars

http://www.betterplace.com/israel

and now in Japan http://www.betterplace.com/press-ro...-japanese-carmakers-in-ministry-of-environme/

 

[vfx]

Aggasi equals Jobs (Steve)

 

[Bob Smith]

I love the idea of Better Place. Do they say when they are going to start here? I can not wait to be driving my roadster and have my son using Better Place while in school.

 

[tomsax]

What's the appeal?

I don't understand the appeal of Project Better Place. They seem to want to have local governments spend hundreds of billions of dollars to put in infrastructure for EVs that don't exist yet. PBP wants to impose design constraints on EVs (their model of replaceable batteries), but won't be producing any themselves. PBP wants the high-margin charging business while EV producers get stuck competing for razor thin margins on commodity EVs. PBP want to be paid billions of dollars and get a monopoly on charging EVs so that they can impose cellphone-type plans on EV owners.

Do you love your relationship with your cellphone provider so much that you want to have your driving turned over to a cellphone-like company with government-sponsored monopoly power?

 

[hailstorm]

I don't understand the appeal of Project Better Place. They seem to want to have local governments spend hundreds of billions of dollars to put in infrastructure for EVs that don't exist yet.

The way Better Place funds infrastructure deployment varies from country to country. In Israel for example it is being funded by private investment. Denmark they are working with DONG. Australia they are working with Macquarie to raise money. California it is VantagePoint Venture Partners.

I think Hawaii is the first place that is doing a public-private partnership. That may well be using public money. It's a far cry from Better Place going to each government begging for billions.

PBP wants to impose design constraints on EVs (their model of replaceable batteries), but won't be producing any themselves. PBP wants the high-margin charging business while EV producers get stuck competing for razor thin margins on commodity EVs. PBP want to be paid billions of dollars and get a monopoly on charging EVs so that they can impose cellphone-type plans on EV owners.

*Sigh* No one is being forced down the path of having replaceable batteries. If a car maker doesn't want to implement this into their cars they don't have to. It won't prevent you from using Better Place's charge spots.

Wherever possible they are using open stardards and creating new ones where they don't exist. If this is successful then there will be plenty of competitors to Better Place.

If you don't want to use any of their services at all then you can always charge up from home.

Do you love your relationship with your cellphone provider so much that you want to have your driving turned over to a cellphone-like company with government-sponsored monopoly power?

Again, stop with the fearmongering. If another company wants to come along and install a charging infrastructure they can do. Indeed in many countries now it has been an electric utility company that has installed charging stations.

 

[vfx]

Thank you Hailstorm. You blew in a breath of educated air.

Even if the financial model of PBP is suspect it will educate the world that EVs are possible and practical.

Martin's assertion about Hawaii is spot on. As a tourist destination for the entire world it will send out converted to every spot on the planet. When EVs come up in local conversation and for vote, there will be a seed planted in that town.

SanFran is also a tourist mecca -so more EV reinforcement. :smile:

 

[TEG]

I don't understand the appeal of Project Better Place. They seem to want to have local governments spend hundreds of billions of dollars to put in infrastructure for EVs that don't exist yet. ...

The "build it and they will come" approach seemed backwards to me too, but it does seem like they are getting some traction with it. There is still a big question if a large scale recharging or battery swap infrastructure is what is really needed to start things rolling. Are companies like Tesla held back because they expect predominantly home charging? Will chargers on every corner provide the inspiration for more people to want to buy EVs?

Anyone happen to know if any car manufacturers besides Nissan/Renault are on board to build PBP compatible vehicles?

 

[vfx]

Will chargers on every corner provide the inspiration for more people to want to buy EVs?

If they see a person across the street getting out of their car and plugging in while they are standing at a gas pump with rapidly climbing numbers.

 

[dpeilow]

Anyone happen to know if any car manufacturers besides Nissan/Renault are on board to build PBP compatible vehicles?

Subaru?

Better Place Joins Subaru, Other Japanese Carmakers in Ministry of Environment Electric Vehicle Project

 

[TEG]

Subaru?

Better Place Joins Subaru, Other Japanese Carmakers in Ministry of Environment Electric Vehicle Project

Not exactly an agreement, but it sounds like that could lead to something.

With everyone else talking about economic slowdown spoiling their plans, I wonder if PBP is scaling back right now?

 

[hailstorm]

Not exactly an agreement, but it sounds like that could lead to something.

With everyone else talking about economic slowdown spoiling their plans, I wonder if PBP is scaling back right now?

I've been following them quite closely. I did help them out for a while with forum moderation on their website up until recently.

If anything they have actually surprised me with how quick they have moved getting several big countries and states around the world to sign up.

My expectation was they would stick with just Israel and Denmark as proof of concept before approaching other countries.

I think the next major milestone for them is how quickly they can get all this new infrastructure installed in each country. Each country they are operating in appears to have its own subsidiary company set up in it so success could vary.

What I think is unclear at the moment is whether a car company has to support battery exchange to allow participation in the battery leasing pricing model and be eligible for the subsidy towards the purchase of the car.

 

[graham]

Martin's assertion about Hawaii is spot on. As a tourist destination for the entire world it will send out converted to every spot on the planet. When EVs come up in local conversation and for vote, there will be a seed planted in that town.

Currently in Hawaii, and I would have to agree. This would be a great place for electric cars. And Solar. And Wind. And Geothermal. And Wave...

 

[vfx]

I just gotta stick in here that PBP solves the "which comes first?" problem. Car makers won't build EVs because there is no place to plug them in. No community or company wants to put up chargers without cars. Doing it a one expensive chunk at once gets the egg rolling. Who pays? I guess who feels they benefit most.

 

[SByer]

Ok, so I still don't get all this worry about battery swapping. We talk about swapping out a known-good battery as a concern. Well, the battery quality is fairly directly related to the max charge it will take - something easily measurable and displayed. And nothing says that the swappable part has to constitute the whole battery. Yes, a custom battery wins on capacity partly because of all the corners you can tuck it into. So, keep tucking non-swappable parts into those corners. Then, you can get away with fewer, more brick-like configurations of the swappable part. Instead of getting another 200 miles on every swap, you just have to comfortably get to the next swap station, then still top off from a plug overnight to get back the full range.

And, I think a reasonable swapping plan reduces the pressure to tuck in a super-big battery and all the potential dead weight it represents. Heck, even better would be for a car to have the ability to run on fewer "bricks" than it's maximum capacity for daily use. Better handling and efficiency for day-to-day, but the ability to stuff in extra capacity when necessary. Or, if you design the bricks and connections right, take a bit of room on the bottom of the wagon's floor for the extra range set of bricks.