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Proof AP doesn’t ding you but…after you disengage

JulienW

Active Member
Jul 7, 2018
2,927
3,757
Atlanta
Here is proof AP doesn’t ding you for Hard Braking when it does a Panic Stop going about 70+MPH. Was in HOV lane and a car cut in the HOV lane in front of the minivan in front of me and they had to lay on the brakes. AP was EXTREMELY slow to react and I started panicking. Just as AP applied the brakes and Red forward collision steering wheel alarm went off/beeping I also stomped down on the brakes. Unfortunately since I stomped the brakes AP disengaged and I got dinged for Following Distance since I was about to rear end the minivan. However there is NO WAY I could just sit there panicking and not hit the brakes. I held off as long as I could but with AP slow to react I could NOT react any longer.

So by reacting correctly (although slower that I should have since I’m trying not to) and disengaging AP after its mistake I get dinged for following too close. WTH

Almost unbelievably this is my second Hard Braking encounter on AP this week. Earlier a car did a left turn in front of me and AP did Hard Stoped and no ding. I also hit the brakes but no Following Distance ding either since I wasn’t behind the car and going under 50MPH.

Strangely my score is still 99 but since Tesla is only selecting a few 100s to start I might as well be a 30. No way am I “playing” this game week after week after week. I miss driving my car, also tired of being passed and in everyones way around curves.


IMG_9303.jpeg
IMG_9298.jpeg
 
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AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
11,178
14,193
San Diego
I held off as long as I could but with AP slow to react I could NOT react any longer.

Yeah, I've noticed the same, though I just rode it out (which was probably not wise).

Hindsight is 20/20, but in your situation, dialing back that scroll-wheel aggressively as soon as the traffic slowdown was noted (10-12 seconds before brakes were applied) would have helped to increase following distance a lot (though AP is shockingly slow to respond to set speed changes now, and when it does it's kind of jerky, so this alone may have been insufficient). And then disengaging AP completely would probably have been wise - could just release the accelerator as soon as any sort of movement into the carpool lane was noted and it probably would not have required hard braking.

Normally when I notice any sort of slowdown I disengage AP since it is so bad at dealing with those situations. (In general that's not new behavior though.)
 
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bpnine

Member
Apr 17, 2021
10
7
MSP
I'm generally pretty light on braking (less so on accelerating) so my normal driving habits haven't dinged me on braking, but OMG the 'extreme turning' is really annoying. I used an accelerometer app on my phone to see what .3G lateral really feels like and its ridiculously slow, much slower than normal human drivers, even professional limo drivers, would ever do.

I still think this is a fun game, but I'm not sure how long I'll want to piss off everyone behind me at corners. If they had the limit set for even .4g (like the braking) you could drive more or less normally around corners (maybe 10-15mph), but .3g is probably a 'weed out' setting so less people qualify for the beta.
 
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AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
11,178
14,193
San Diego
If they had the limit set for even .4g (like the braking)
It's 0.3g (0.1g for starting counting) for braking, and 0.4g (0.2g to start counting) for aggressive turning.

I think it's likely triggered mostly due to lack of smoothness on turns, though obviously taking a corner at a decent rate will give you 0.4g too.
 
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gcsutton

Member
Jun 28, 2020
142
80
Tucson, AZ
Here is proof AP doesn’t ding you for Hard Braking when it does a Panic Stop going about 70+MPH. Was in HOV lane and a car cut in the HOV lane in front of the minivan in front of me and they had to lay on the brakes. AP was EXTREMELY slow to react and I started panicking. Just as AP applied the brakes and Red forward collision steering wheel alarm went off/beeping I also stomped down on the brakes. Unfortunately since I stomped the brakes AP disengaged and I got dinged for Following Distance since I was about to rear end the minivan. However there is NO WAY I could just sit there panicking and not hit the brakes. I held off as long as I could but with AP slow to react I could NOT react any longer.

So by reacting correctly (although slower that I should have since I’m trying not to) and disengaging AP after its mistake I get dinged for following too close. WTH

Almost unbelievably this is my second Hard Braking encounter on AP this week. Earlier a car did a left turn in front of me and AP did Hard Stoped and no ding. I also hit the brakes but no Following Distance ding either since I wasn’t behind the car and going under 50MPH.

Strangely my score is still 99 but since Tesla is only selecting a few 100s to start I might as well be a 30. No way am I “playing” this game week after week after week. I miss driving my car, also tired of being passed and in everyones way around curves.


View attachment 716762View attachment 716763
We're all sucking it up for the score.
 
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TresLA

Member
Jul 15, 2018
205
239
L.A.
AP disengaged and I got dinged for Following Distance since I was about to rear end the minivan.
Not that you have the data to look back on, but from the vid it seems like your speed was below 50 MPH before hitting the brakes manually? If so, then this shouldn't have been the incident that dinged you for Unsafe Following Distance. I think I've only been dinged for UFD when merging onto highways or other manual driving moments when the merge was too hairy (merging highways traffic trying to change lanes in both directions aka poor road design) for me to trust AP.

I've still got 100 going into 6th or 7th day (whatever this is since last Saturday), but yeah I dunno how long I'll keep this up if no option to ever enjoy driving the car again.
 
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JulienW

Active Member
Jul 7, 2018
2,927
3,757
Atlanta
Not that you have the data to look back on, but from the vid it seems like your speed was below 50 MPH before hitting the brakes manually? If so, then this shouldn't have been the incident that dinged you for Unsafe Following Distance. I think I've only been dinged for UFD when merging onto highways or other manual driving moments when the merge was too hairy (merging highways traffic trying to change lanes in both directions aka poor road design) for me to trust AP.

I've still got 100 going into 6th or 7th day (whatever this is since last Saturday), but yeah I dunno how long I'll keep this up if no option to ever enjoy driving the car again.
A few more details some factual and some from (objective) memory.

Had AP set to 77MPH/following 1 and had been for about 10 miles (fact). As I rounded curve I saw traffic and of course AP did’t react. As a human we start preparing and slowing. After a couple of seconds I rolled the thumb wheel down to “force” AP to start slowing but then the car (which I didn’t see until watching the video) cut in front of the minivan. While I wasn’t looking at the speed it had slowed very little pre hard braking. I wanted as long as I could and AP actually applied the brakes a couple of hundred milliseconds before me but I was on AP and could not stop myself from slamming them to the floor.

Clearly the car was going above 50MPH when I hit the brakes and disengage AP because I was dinged a major Red/60% Unsafe Following.;)
 
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TresLA

Member
Jul 15, 2018
205
239
L.A.
Although your AP max speed was set to 77 MPH, catching up to and following that minivan (beginning of your vid) would mean your speed was slower? But yeah, I was just throwing out a what-if.

FWIW, I was dinged on a drive for 60% Unsafe Following Distance a few days ago, but I think it was because of a complicated highway merge that I drove manually to be safer for that short moment. I was able to claw my way back up to 100 within a day or two.
 
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techlogik

Closed
Mar 22, 2021
380
279
FL
Posted this as well before on the scoring thread. I’m all over the scrolling wheel to “fix” the genius AI the car claims to have all the time f
Ron launching off the line tail gating then st 20mph is goes super chill mode. Then can’t determine depth/distance worth garbage and slams the brakes on sending off warnings and hard braking. Yeah right. Also, finally got dinged on a fcw on AP when the car couldn’t figure out after a car exited and was 20-30ft down the side street it was ok to accelerate by far safely. Yet it starts beeping and lays into the brakes and I have to disengage and take over to save the day and have real common sense and AI do the job, my brain. Don’t need someone rear ending me.

This is why self driving isn’t happening in my lifetime. Stop dreaming people. It’s only as good as the Devs and maniacs around you on the road are too unpredictable. AI can’t handle even the most basic common sense and predictable things people do now. That’s not getting better with more Beta users. That isn’t the resolution to the mystery.

with that said after 5 days and 400 miles of driving still at 99.
 
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dcesq06

Member
Feb 24, 2020
127
181
Northern VA
This is why self driving isn’t happening in my lifetime. Stop dreaming people. It’s only as good as the Devs and maniacs around you on the road are too unpredictable. AI can’t handle even the most basic common sense and predictable things people do now. That’s not getting better with more Beta users. That isn’t the resolution to the mystery.
For you to honestly believe that self-driving won't happen in your lifetime, I assume you are over 70 years old (or, if you are younger, you are anticipating a short life expectancy).

It won't happen in the next year and it may not even happen in the next 5 or ten years, but I would bet the house that it will happen at some point within the life span of people who are currently under 60 years old.
 
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JulienW

Active Member
Jul 7, 2018
2,927
3,757
Atlanta
Safety score should go UP with user override of AP if driver is overriding to assist with safety. Bonus points!
This is probably the main problem. I understand that writing the algorithms to cover this would likely be prohibitively hard but……

In my case I wanted to and should have applied the brakes about 2 seconds prior. This would have avoided the Emergency Braking/full ABS lock event. I was discouraged from this by the fear and knowledge that I would get a HUGE ding for very Hard Braking and Unsafe Following.

And I even wrongly got a Unsafe Following ding for instinctively reacting at the last possible moment to avoid a collision.

We have all watched the FSD beta videos when it made a major mistake that required instant intervention.

Seems that what I wanted to do and even what I did would be positive towards my score instead of a negative since it is what needs to be done to test FSD beta.

IMG_9305 (1).jpeg
 
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AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
11,178
14,193
San Diego
Red/60% Unsafe Following

FWIW, I was dinged on a drive for 60% Unsafe Following Distance a few days ago
Fortunately 60% unsafe following scores are likely SUPER easy to fix. Might only take 10-20 seconds of following to get it down below 5%. They also don’t really hurt your score. The issue with these 60% scores is that you haven’t been following anyone, as far as the score is concerned. Once you follow someone, all is well. Just too much AP use.

But I’d assume these events led to hard braking too - which is somewhat more difficult to fix; even 1% is basically fatal for getting FSD Beta in the first group.
 
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TresLA

Member
Jul 15, 2018
205
239
L.A.
Fortunately 60% unsafe following scores are likely SUPER easy to fix. Might only take 10-20 seconds of following to get it down below 5%. They also don’t really hurt your score. The issue with these 60% scores is that you haven’t been following anyone, as far as the score is concerned. Once you follow someone, all is well. Just too much AP use.

But I’d assume these events led to hard braking too - which is somewhat more difficult to fix; even 1% is basically fatal for getting FSD Beta in the first group.
Unsafe Following Distance was maybe "easier to fix" than my first day's "hard braking" ding, but both are still fixable. I was 98 the first day because of a hard braking event, but clawed my way back to 100 after a couple days.
 
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AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
11,178
14,193
San Diego
Unsafe Following Distance was maybe "easier to fix" than my first day's "hard braking" ding, but both are still fixable. I was 98 the first day because of a hard braking event, but clawed my way back to 100 after a couple days.
I just mean an easily achievable 5% unsafe following takes your score to 99.9 while a more challenging 0.5% hard braking takes you to 99.1.

Building up safe following is easy, building up safe braking denominator is more difficult.
 
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TresLA

Member
Jul 15, 2018
205
239
L.A.
This is probably the main problem. I understand that writing the algorithms to cover this would likely be prohibitively hard but……

In my case I wanted to and should have applied the brakes about 2 seconds prior. This would have avoided the Emergency Braking/full ABS lock event. I was discouraged from this by the fear and knowledge that I would get a HUGE ding for very Hard Braking and Unsafe Following.

And I even wrongly got a Unsafe Following ding for instinctively reacting at the last possible moment to avoid a collision.

We have all watched the FSD beta videos when it made a major mistake that required instant intervention.

Seems that what I wanted to do and even what I did would be positive towards my score instead of a negative since it is what needs to be done to test FSD beta.

View attachment 717095
This all depends on what Tesla is after. It's been mentioned before, but Tesla is using a tool developed for Tesla Insurance. That probably means they're not just interested in how safe a driver is, but the bigger picture of how likely a collision. Same idea when you move and your insurance premiums go up or down depending on where you live. Same driver and same driving record but different geo-location/environment, all result in a different insurance risk and therefore different Safety Score.
 
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HighZ

Member
Apr 30, 2019
298
406
Rockford, IL
After a 96 on day 1 with a 1.4% hard braking score, I was able to make it back to 100 on Friday reducing the hard braking to 0.2.

Yesterday though I had a hard brake at a light behind someone who stopped that should have gone through. My fault and it was a daily score of 98 with 0.8 on hard braking. I was able to lower it from a 1.8 by doing some braking on an empty road for a few miles.

That increased my over hard braking back to 0.3 and an overall 99 with 945 total miles.

My question is, do you think the overall hard braking score is impacted by driving more miles or by increasing the .1-.3 braking. And is the overall score just based on more miles at a high score.

I drive 600 miles a week mostly freeway so I think I can get back to 100 if I can keep the following distance.
 
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