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Proposed NASA Time Trial EV class

AltLogic

Member
May 14, 2018
252
309
SoCal
It looks like NASA (National Auto Sport Association) posted their solution for EV’s participating in Time Trial. The proposal is to put all variants of Tesla Model 3, Tesla Model S and Porsche Taycan in one class together.

There is a little bit of logic to this. For example, since temperature and pressure (elevation included in the latter) don’t affect EV’s it allows parity among the class in this regard. Also, the way they measure Hp is tough to compare to ICE cars since our Hp coming off the track would measure low (similar to a turbocharged car but to a lesser extent). There is also the updates that can change Hp curves that would make it hard to keep up with.

Not an ideal solution, but a good way for them to gather information while letting us compete. I was looking forward to seeing a Model 3 compete in TT3 but I will have to wait.
 

MoreAgain

Member
Nov 23, 2018
370
417
San Diego
When I was looking into getting my car (RWD Model 3) classed this summer, I was told I could only run in the unlimited classes (SU/TTU) for this year, and that they were looking to readdress the rules next year.

It looks like the recent update clarifies that this is still the case: "All Electric Vehicles (EV’s) are only eligible to compete in SU/TTU. NASA testing and research is ongoing, with the expectation that eligibility and rules regarding EV’s for ST1-6 will occur in 2020."

Hopefully they get it worked out so we can compete in proper classes, TT3 for the Performance, TT4 for the AWD and TT5 for the RWD.
 

AltLogic

Member
May 14, 2018
252
309
SoCal
I was thinking RWD LR would be more like TT4 and a performance 3 would be TT3 with an AWD LR in no mans land (classed in TT3 but not competitive).
 

MasterC17

Active Member
Dec 3, 2015
1,103
1,776
USA
This would be disappointing. There are not enough people participating for this to take off in my opinion (at least outside of CA). While difficult, I can't imagine it's impossible to class these appropriately.
 

MoreAgain

Member
Nov 23, 2018
370
417
San Diego
I think they will get it worked out. I dug up the email I received from them back in May:
Subject: Re: Tesla at May ACS TT?

Hi Morgan,

I hate to get nitpicky regarding the rules, but the eligibility rules for ST5 are:
"ST5 models must have 264 (two hundred sixty-four) or less factory rated engine horsepower and an engine displacement less than 5100 mL (cc)*."

We specifically used the word "engine" and not the word "motor" in that sentence. As you know, an engine converts thermal energy into motion, while a "motor" is any type of machine that supplies movement energy. So, most engines are motors, but electric motors are not engines. It seems that we may need to be more specific in our upcoming rules revision.

Electric motors provide us with a whole new dimension in terms of competition adjustment for "instant torque" as well as for compliance verification. So, the bad news is that you can't run in TT5 or any of the numbered TT classes currently. The good news is that NASA is moving to help lead the industry in determining the best way to have competition with mixed fields of cars with engines and electric motors. We have test race vehicles that are being built now, and will soon be on track giving us the data we need to make this happen while maintaining our goal of a level playing field for all. During this testing phase (which has no current end date), we will be permitting electric vehicles in both TTU and SU our unlimited Time Trial and race classes.


Thanks,

Greg Greenbaum, MD, FACEP

NASA National TT & ST Director
NASA National Medical Director
SoCal TT Director
 

AltLogic

Member
May 14, 2018
252
309
SoCal
It seems like the rules are pretty much summed up in two paragraphs. The intent paragraph and the TTEV section. I didn’t see any size or aero restrictions. I think the rules ban active aero in TT but I am not sure if that applies to TTEV.
 

MasterC17

Active Member
Dec 3, 2015
1,103
1,776
USA
They created a TTEV class back in December. Are there any limitations on tire size and aero? I read through the rules and didn’t see any restrictions.

Thanks for pointing that out, it's not easy to find on their site. Doesn't look like there are any restrictions beyond battery/software modifications. The downside to this, however, is that most regions aren't going to have anyone running in them. Won't exactly be a competitive class. I would have really liked to have seen them integrate the Model 3 into an existing class. Oh well, easy trophy I guess?
 

destructure00

Active Member
Mar 2, 2019
1,459
1,618
Scottsdale, AZ
Thanks for pointing that out, it's not easy to find on their site. Doesn't look like there are any restrictions beyond battery/software modifications. The downside to this, however, is that most regions aren't going to have anyone running in them. Won't exactly be a competitive class. I would have really liked to have seen them integrate the Model 3 into an existing class. Oh well, easy trophy I guess?

I wonder how many entries a local chapter would want to see before even running this class? I can't see them working a 1-entry class into an already busy schedule.
 

MasterC17

Active Member
Dec 3, 2015
1,103
1,776
USA
I wonder how many entries a local chapter would want to see before even running this class? I can't see them working a 1-entry class into an already busy schedule.

Well I think they would just throw you in with the existing TT classes. NASA runs their TT like an HPDE group with open passing. So, even though you are running against multiple classes in the same session your times are compared only to those in your class (if that makes sense).
 
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Reactions: destructure00

Ryefry

Member
Apr 26, 2019
105
173
Dallas and NW Arkansas
I ran behind a extensively modified with aero TT4 Scion FRS (184hp 2400lbs w/driver) in my LR RWD this last weekend. My car was bone stock besides the Pilot Sport 4S tires and I could keep up with him. With equal tires and track pads I'm sure I would have been faster for a lap.
 

MasterC17

Active Member
Dec 3, 2015
1,103
1,776
USA
I ran behind a extensively modified with aero TT4 Scion FRS (184hp 2400lbs w/driver) in my LR RWD this last weekend. My car was bone stock besides the Pilot Sport 4S tires and I could keep up with him. With equal tires and track pads I'm sure I would have been faster for a lap.

I can't speak on the LR RWD, but the Performance 3 with basic track mods (tires, pads, fluid, camber/alignment) will run comparable lap times to a similarly set up BMW M2/M3/M4, Porsche Cayman S, the new Supra, Corvette C6 Z06, V8 Audi R8, Merc C63 S, Audi TTRS, etc.

I'll have some more data very soon, but I expect it will run under 2:55 at VIR Grand.

Lightning Lap Results 2006 to 2019: Every Car, Every Lap Time

In short; the Model 3 is very fast for what it is (heavy).
 

Dolemite

is my name
Sep 19, 2019
1,129
1,359
ol' Virginny
I can't speak on the LR RWD, but the Performance 3 with basic track mods (tires, pads, fluid, camber/alignment) will run comparable lap times to a similarly set up BMW M2/M3/M4, Porsche Cayman S, the new Supra, Corvette C6 Z06, V8 Audi R8, Merc C63 S, Audi TTRS, etc.

I'll have some more data very soon, but I expect it will run under 2:55 at VIR Grand.

Lightning Lap Results 2006 to 2019: Every Car, Every Lap Time

In short; the Model 3 is very fast for what it is (heavy).
pls make this happen
 

Davidss2

Member
Jun 7, 2019
85
166
Texas
Honestly it is way better for us to be put in our own class in NASA. We don't accelerate the same way as an ICE, we have amazing acceleration from 40-80 and terrible acceleration over 100. So on a short really tight track we are way faster than on a long high speed track compared to similar ICE cars. Because of that if NASA was going to put is in with ICE cars they would pick the best case scenario (super tight track) and then plop us into TT2 or TT1 and we would be uncompetitive.
 

MasterC17

Active Member
Dec 3, 2015
1,103
1,776
USA
Honestly it is way better for us to be put in our own class in NASA. We don't accelerate the same way as an ICE, we have amazing acceleration from 40-80 and terrible acceleration over 100. So on a short really tight track we are way faster than on a long high speed track compared to similar ICE cars. Because of that if NASA was going to put is in with ICE cars they would pick the best case scenario (super tight track) and then plop us into TT2 or TT1 and we would be uncompetitive.

I agree there is a noticeable gap that begins right at ~110mph, but it should also kind of even out. Most tracks have a decent split between low speed corners and high speed straights. I guess my only complaint right now is I just don't see there being many/any people running in this class for a few years in most regions. And if, for example, the Plaid S comes out, how is the 3 supposed to compete with that? Honestly, a Taycan Turbo S is probably already going to blow the 3 away.
 
Dec 19, 2015
891
791
North Dallas, Texas
It's possible the Taycan will blow away the 3 on a high speed track, but it's still 5,132lbs. The Model 3 is 1,100lbs lighter. Last week SLB/Grid Life was at COTA and here is a short video of the Taycan lapping COTA

.

He was using OEM 500tw Conti's. I have no idea how hard he was pushing it but looking at the video it came in around 2:35, which is what I expect the 3 to do.
 

MasterC17

Active Member
Dec 3, 2015
1,103
1,776
USA
It's possible the Taycan will blow away the 3 on a high speed track, but it's still 5,132lbs. The Model 3 is 1,100lbs lighter. Last week SLB/Grid Life was at COTA and here is a short video of the Taycan lapping COTA

.

He was using OEM 500tw Conti's. I have no idea how hard he was pushing it but looking at the video it came in around 2:35, which is what I expect the 3 to do.

Interesting comparison, but those 500tw tires certainly aren't helping haha! I guess we will have to see how many participants they have this year. I'm guessing most folks will be from California/Texas. Once they have enough people it would be easy to implement power-weight ratio classes within the EV class.
 

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