PSA: norcal - powerwall PTO triggered switch to EBCE (CCA)

[astrorob]

i had previously opted out of the transition to EBCE back when it happened. not because i am against CCAs but at the time i was trying to get powerwalls installed and i didn't want the added complexity of the billing or the transition to effect PGE's PTO process for the powerwalls. everyone here assures me it would have been fine but i don't trust PGE at all and so didn't want to give them any opportunity to put up any further roadblocks than they otherwise might in the PTO process.

i received PTO for the powerwalls in late june 2021 and it took until late november for PGE to start generating the "B&W" bills. i thought i was through with the PW/PTO ordeal but just received a new PGE bill with pages and pages of EBCE generation bills, starting back in june.

so now it looks like i have monthly true-up for generation and yearly true-up for distribution, with the distribution charges on a bill that is incomprehensible by humans. joy.

i guess PTO on the PWs created a new PGE account which must have then initiated an automatic switch to EBCE. so if you don't want that to happen, i guess you'd need to opt-out again. i assume i can probably switch back but that's just another opportunity for true-ups to be reset, etc. so i guess i will just leave it alone.

 

[getakey]

what PCIA are they charging you?

 

[astrorob]

hmm, all it says on the bill is 2020 vintage power charge indifference adjustment in the delivery charges sections, and in each EBCE there is a variable PCIA credit which is negative (so an actual credit, not a charge.) the delivery charges section does not have anything itemized. in most cases the PCIA credit exceeds the entire delivery charge.

so actually i guess this means the PGE charges are now on a monthly basis as well, which makes sense. so no more yearly true-ups to anyone? or am i going to get a bill once a year with the PCIA charges from PGE?

do the B&W bills stop coming now? since this was retroactive to 6/30/2021 i guess all those B&W bills need to be regenerated and reissued... sigh.

 

[Ampster]

I have never seen a PCIA be a credit. The bill is complicated because PG&E does not just charge the unbundled rate. Instead they deduct their generation charge and add the PCIA on the first page of electric charges. Then there is a separate generation charge for the CCA. Unless you are on a 100% renewable rate from EBCE the total of their charges plus the PCIA should be less that the generation charge deducted by PG&E for generation. That means you are saving money with EBCE. I have been with Sonoma Clean Power for four years and they also subsidized the purchase of an EVSE.

 

[getakey]

I have never seen a PCIA be a credit. The bill is complicated because PG&E does not just charge the unbundled rate. Instead they deduct their generation charge and add the PCIA on the first page of electric charges. Then there is a separate generation charge for the CCA. Unless you are on a 100% renewable rate from EBCE the total of their charges plus the PCIA should be less that the generation charge deducted by PG&E for generation. That means you are saving money with EBCE. I have been with Sonoma Clean Power for four years and they also subsidized the purchase of an EVSE.

Would be interested in seeing how the PG&E generation deducted charge is more than the other charges. We are being opted in to Pioneer CCA, but it does not appear that the net rates are lower with Pioneer

 

[Ampster]

Would be interested in seeing how the PG&E generation deducted charge is more than the other charges.

Every CCA is different in terms of what their default starting rate is. In my area the SCP starting rate is less. I have subsequently opted for 100% renewable power which is more.
The simple answer as to how a CCA can do it less expensively is that the CCA is a non profit which has less overhead than an Investor Owned Utility.

 

[getakey]

Every CCA is different in terms of what their default starting rate is. In my area the SCP starting rate is less. I have subsequently opted for 100% renewable power which is more.
The simple answer as to how a CCA can do it less expensively is that the CCA is a non profit which has less overhead than an Investor Owned Utility.

sorry - it is not a simple answer. The CCA does not change any FTE or cost for the IOU. The same overhead exists with or without the CCA. They can only charge lees if they contract for less generation. But then they have to add the PCIA charges. I don't see how CCAs can work in the long term

 

[Ampster]

Under deregulation the IOUs are not allowed to make a profit on generation but are allowed to apply overhead to their cost. What I am saying is that the IOUs overhead is more per kilowatt-hour than the CCAs. I don't know what FTE has to do with comparing a CCA rate to the unbundled generation rate of the IOUs. Have you compared the rates for Pioneer or any other CCA against PG&E generation rate? Their rates are published on their websites. There are 23 CCAs serving hundreds of cities in California and at least two have been around for almost ten years. The CCAs offer other benefits not offered by PG&E.
More information on CCAs is here:

CalCCA

cal-cca.org

 

[getakey]

Under deregulation the IOUs are not allowed to make a profit on generation but are allowed to apply overhead to their cost. What I am saying is that the IOUs overhead is more per kilowatt-hour than the CCAs. I don't know what FTE has to do with comparing a CCA rate to the unbundled generation rate of the IOUs. Have you compared the rates for Pioneer or any other CCA against PG&E generation rate? Their rates are published on their websites. There are 23 CCAs serving hundreds of cities in California and at least two have been around for almost ten years. The CCAs offer other benefits not offered by PG&E.
More information on CCAs is here:

CalCCA

cal-cca.org

This is from a link on Pioneer Web Site. I don't entirely agree with the analysis, but it shows Pioneer rates are higher. I'd rather see the specific rates listed by TOU. What other Benefits do CCAs offer? Look at the second link for a "green" comparison.

https://pioneercommunityenergy.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/pio_rateclasscomparison-13-2-20.pdf

https://pioneercommunityenergy.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/PCL-notice-2020-filed-2021-2.png

 

[Ampster]

What other Benefits do CCAs offer?

I got a discounted EVSE and a $5 a month rebate for joining a program that allowed them to turn off my EVSE when grid is stressed. There are also subsidies on heat pump water heaters and a larger True Up for overproduction.

 

[astrorob]

i wish the blue bill were more explanatory - there is no itemization of the PGE charges, just the EBCE charges. i can post clippings if that is helpful.

i think the B&W bills that are in my account are obsolete because they need to be revised for the transition to CCE. so i doubt they will have any PCIA charges there.

 

[astrorob]

this bill has 5 months of charges on it. these are screenshots of the pair of PGE and EBCE charges for the last month in the bill. you can see that the PCIA credit exceeds the delivery charges from PGE. i assume PGE will just get me on this later in some kind of true-up, but who knows. after all the PCIA is not technically a delivery charge although it is obviously related.

 

[Ampster]

That is a paired storage bill so I have no insight because I don't have paired storage.

 

[astrorob]

yes, i did say that the powerwall pto triggered this transition in the thread title, and the b&w bills are apparently only a thing for paired storage customers anymore.

 

[miimura]

this bill has 5 months of charges on it. these are screenshots of the pair of PGE and EBCE charges for the last month in the bill. you can see that the PCIA credit exceeds the delivery charges from PGE. i assume PGE will just get me on this later in some kind of true-up, but who knows. after all the PCIA is not technically a delivery charge although it is obviously related.



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The EBCE billing is strange. What they have done is take the Generation portion of the EV2 tariff and charged you that. The PCIA credit is their discount to bring their rates down to account for the fact that PG&E does charge PCIA and FFS. My CCA, SVCE, does not do it that way, but the net effect is similar. They just publish their own Generation rates so that the sum of their Generation plus PCIA plus FFS is fractionally lower than the PG&E Generation Credit.

 

[astrorob]

one thing that i just thought of - where do the distribution credits for putting energy into the grid come from now? on the face of it i’m only being credited the generation portion of the bill now. perhaps the generation credit is just hidden in the non-itemized pge portion of these bills? that could be the reason why the pge bill here is so low and is less than the PCIA credit.

 

[Ampster]

where do the distribution credits for putting energy into the grid come from now?

I still have the blue & white bill and my first page shows the unbundled rate which includes both distribution and generation combined. My credits for generation usually show up as negative amounts in one or more of the TOU periods. Because it is winter and the weather has been cloudy not much shows up at this time of year for me because my heat is electric. In my case the generation is hidden because on a net basis this time of year it is not greater than my consumption. Later my generation will show up when it is greater than consumption on a net basis for the month. That is only going to be on the part peak and peak periods because so much of my off peak consumption is EV charging. When I go to the PG&E website and look at daily consumption I am able to see a day or two in which my production exceeded my consumption but those were days I did not charge my Teslas.

 

[Redhill_qik]

I have never seen a PCIA be a credit. The bill is complicated because PG&E does not just charge the unbundled rate. Instead they deduct their generation charge and add the PCIA on the first page of electric charges. Then there is a separate generation charge for the CCA. Unless you are on a 100% renewable rate from EBCE the total of their charges plus the PCIA should be less that the generation charge deducted by PG&E for generation. That means you are saving money with EBCE. I have been with Sonoma Clean Power for four years and they also subsidized the purchase of an EVSE.

The PCIA tariff rate is always positive, but when you export then it is a credit and when you import it is a charge. This the same as every other tariff rate.

 

[astrorob]

ok i think then the PCIA must be hidden in the PGE portions of this bill. in the end i guess i need to wait for revised black and white bills to even make sense of this stuff.

 

[astrorob]

as it turns out my kid’s apartment is on ebce and the pge distribution charges are itemized on that bill: distribution, pcia, taxes, generation credit. so that’s what’s going on, the paired storage begets the b&w bill and the b&w bill begets the lack of itemization on the blue bill.