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PSA: Use PIN-To-Drive or Keycard if you have small children

:rolleyes:Guy posts a helpful suggestion. People knock him for providing a PSA. TMC in a nutshell.

I just want to point out this is a helpful suggestion why knock him for it. Remember the actor Anton Yelchin
Who’s Jeep shifted out of gear and he died. What OP is helping posting is a small, helpful, thought no full proof prevention. But it might help some.

Maybe these super parents commenting will have kids who will do anything wrong on in accident, must be nice right?

Why be negative. I’ve noticed this about this TMC forum, I don’t remember the bmw forums to be like this, nor the 350z or VW Gti forums. People just *sugar* on everything.
 
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AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
14,883
19,212
San Diego
:rolleyes:Guy posts a helpful suggestion. People knock him for providing a PSA. TMC in a nutshell.

I just want to point out this is a helpful suggestion why knock him for it. Remember the actor Anton Yelchin
Who’s Jeep shifted out of gear and he died. What OP is helping posting is a small, helpful, thought no full proof prevention. But it might help some.

Maybe these super parents commenting will have kids who will do anything wrong on in accident, must be nice right?

Why be negative. I’ve noticed this about this TMC forum, I don’t remember the bmw forums to be like this, nor the 350z or VW Gti forums. People just *sugar* on everything.

Don’t worry, the responses have been roughly in line with my expectations so far, maybe slightly better actually. We’ll see what the morning brings I guess! ;)

You can lead a horse to water... as my dad always says...

As long as the message and awareness gets out to the silent majority, individual opinions don’t matter much.
 
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nvx1977

Unknown Member
Nov 25, 2017
3,070
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NH, MA
:rolleyes:Guy posts a helpful suggestion. People knock him for providing a PSA. TMC in a nutshell.

I just want to point out this is a helpful suggestion why knock him for it.

If by "knocking" you mean insulting him, then no, that's not good.

If by "knocking" you mean people have alternate viewpoints about the necessity of turning on PIN to drive for this very remote use case of a toddler not buckled in, freely roaming the cabin or having easy access to the driver seat, getting into the driver seat foot well, applying just the right combo of brake + stalk + accelerator, all within a second or two.... that's fair game, and I dare say the point of a discussion forum.

The PSA is out there now, and people can decide for themselves what they want to do.

This does seem like unintended operation of the car, and I think all of us that is concerned about this should report it to Tesla as a legit safety issue. Solve the problem at the root cause.
 

N54TT

Active Member
Aug 14, 2018
1,066
925
NY
The OP has a valid concern. But when Im washing the car, putting dressing on the tires and hop in instead of summoning...I can’t even move the car over a foot if the door is open. If the door is open it will go into D, and you can start moving....but it immediately throws itself back into park.

Anyone else experience this? Give it a try...to move the car sitting in drivers seat and door open.
 

Matt L

Active Member
Jul 20, 2018
1,050
1,685
OK USA
If by "knocking" you mean insulting him, then no, that's not good.

If by "knocking" you mean people have alternate viewpoints about the necessity of turning on PIN to drive for this very remote use case of a toddler not buckled in, freely roaming the cabin or having easy access to the driver seat, getting into the driver seat foot well, applying just the right combo of brake + stalk + accelerator, all within a second or two.... that's fair game, and I dare say the point of a discussion forum.

The PSA is out there now, and people can decide for themselves what they want to do.

This does seem like unintended operation of the car, and I think all of us that is concerned about this should report it to Tesla as a legit safety issue. Solve the problem at the root cause.

Thanks. You seem to get it.

Others are having fun twisting the argument. The OP told the story of allowing a kid to play in the drivers seat as a way to occupy the kid so he could wash the car. When realizing that this could lead to operation of the car (shocking), recommends to all users to now take away one of the convenience features of the car. My point is simple, let the kid play somewhere else.

Yet that somehow equals leaving loaded guns around the house...
 
I don't have a problem with suggesting that people turn on PIN to drive as an ADDITIONAL safety measure. I only have a problem with people using terms as issue, bug, problem, defect and suggesting that when their toddler gets in the car and runs you over, that it is only the fault of Tesla. Your kids actions are your responsibility as the parent, just like your car's actions are your responsibility as the fully attentive driver(required by law).

Also, ok so you call this a "safety issue", but there are all kinds of "safety issues" if you restrict the "safety issue" requirements to a child that is too small to override the pin to drive(weight on driver seat and pressing brake pedal, and not being tall enough to simultaneously enter the pin...). Is the safety issue magically gone after a child is bid enough to enter the pin to drive...no it has just shifted....back to WATCH YOUR KIDS...or you just then suggest that you change your pin regularly to stay ahead of your kids.

Again, go ahead and suggest PIN to drive as an ADDITIONAL safety measure, but don't try to suggest there is any problem with the car or that someone can now freely let their toddler climb all over the car unattended just because you have set PIN to drive.
 
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It's a good thing kids that small can't open the driver door and get in the car then, isn't it..

My 2yo can open the door and climb in pretty easily. Luckily she knows she goes in the back seat and hasn't ever tried to open a front door. I still have PIN to drive on for other reasons though.

Of course pretty much everyone probably knows you shouldn't let a kid play in the driver's seat, but those little ninjas can be fast and sneaky when they want to be. It is nice to have some extra safety.
 
unattended
unattended
unattended
I think part of the issue here is people have different definitions of unattended. Obviously if the child is completely unattended this is not an issue since the phone key won't be near the car. If you read OPs post there is a scenario that can happen even when you are very close to the child (unless you have a quick reaction time and grab them by the leg). There are many kids who can get out of car seat restraints by themselves who cannot be trusted not to crawl into the front seat.
The OP has a valid concern. But when Im washing the car, putting dressing on the tires and hop in instead of summoning...I can’t even move the car over a foot if the door is open. If the door is open it will go into D, and you can start moving....but it immediately throws itself back into park.
Reread OP's post and watch his video. You are letting the car creep and activating the rollaway protection, if you press the accelerator the car will go. Many people are confused about the way the interlocks work.
 

AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
14,883
19,212
San Diego
Anyone else experience this? Give it a try...to move the car sitting in drivers seat and door open.

This is why I made the video. If you want to see how, watch it (it is about 1 minute).

https://flic.kr/p/2g7y3zi

The OP told the story of allowing a kid to play in the drivers seat as a way to occupy the kid so he could wash the car.

No, I did nothing like that.

Is the safety issue magically gone after a child is bid enough to enter the pin to drive...no it has just shifted....

No, the risk is isn’t gone, of course. But older children have more control of their actions, and better understandings of consequences of those actions. There is substantial additional protection to having a child who has some awareness of safety issues. For example, you might trust a 5-8 year old (who had been trained and watched previously) to cross a street by themselves. But you would never trust a 2-year-old to do so.

The small child in this case who could “drive” the car would not even be trying to drive the car - he would simply be flailing or clambering around in the footwell, and it would potentially take less than 5 seconds for acceleration to result.

You are letting the car creep and activating the rollaway protection, if you press the accelerator the car will go.

I don’t think you were actually referring to creep mode, but for clarity:
Note that the video was done with creep off, but it does not matter whether creep is on or off, everything behaves the same way. The only difference I found is that a car in creep will move forward about one foot prior to automatically shifting to park, after the brake is released, IF the accelerator is not pressed.
 

AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
14,883
19,212
San Diego
Anyone else experience this? Give it a try...to move the car sitting in drivers seat and door open.

That is why I made the video. If you want to see how, watch it (it is about 1 minute).

Model 3 Rollaway

The OP told the story of allowing a kid to play in the drivers seat as a way to occupy the kid so he could wash the car.

No, I did nothing like that.

Is the safety issue magically gone after a child is bid enough to enter the pin to drive...no it has just shifted....

No, the risk is isn’t gone, of course. But older children have more control of their actions, and better understanding of consequences of those actions. There is substantial additional protection to having a child who has some awareness of safety issues. For example, you might trust a 5-8 year old (who had been trained and watched previously) to cross a street by themselves. But you would never trust a 2-year-old to do so.

The small child in this case who could “drive” the car would not even be trying to drive the car - he would simply be flailing or clambering around in the footwell, and it would potentially take less than 5 seconds for acceleration to result.

A temper tantrum would probably make an acceleration slightly more likely, due to the stiffening and kicking and flailing and arching of the back that tends to occur.

You are letting the car creep and activating the rollaway protection, if you press the accelerator the car will go.

I don’t think you were actually referring to creep mode, but for clarity:
Note that the video was done with creep off, but it does not matter whether creep is on or off; everything behaves the same way. The only difference I found is that a car in creep will move forward about one foot prior to automatically shifting to park, after the brake is released, IF the accelerator is not pressed.
 
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N54TT

Active Member
Aug 14, 2018
1,066
925
NY
That is why I made the video. If you want to see how, watch it (it is about 1 minute).

Model 3 Rollaway



No, I did nothing like that.



No, the risk is isn’t gone, of course. But older children have more control of their actions, and better understanding of consequences of those actions. There is substantial additional protection to having a child who has some awareness of safety issues. For example, you might trust a 5-8 year old (who had been trained and watched previously) to cross a street by themselves. But you would never trust a 2-year-old to do so.

The small child in this case who could “drive” the car would not even be trying to drive the car - he would simply be flailing or clambering around in the footwell, and it would potentially take less than 5 seconds for acceleration to result.



I don’t think you were actually referring to creep mode, but for clarity:
Note that the video was done with creep off, but it does not matter whether creep is on or off; everything behaves the same way. The only difference I found is that a car in creep will move forward about one foot prior to automatically shifting to park, after the brake is released, IF the accelerator is not pressed.

Interesting...maybe I’m not hitting the accelerator hard enough than and that’s why it’s still engaging rollaway.
 

AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
14,883
19,212
San Diego
Interesting...maybe I’m not hitting the accelerator hard enough than and that’s why it’s still engaging rollaway.

If you are testing yourself, please be careful (note I did my testing in a wide open lot with no traffic, but it is generally never safe to accelerate with the door open and seat belt off!). I did not have to floor it or anything. You do have to be quick - more than a second with no pedal input, rollaway protection will engage.

BTW, you can sit in the seat; you do not have to prop yourself up like I did. If the door is open and seat belt off that is an adequate test.

This is version 16.2 but the behavior was the same with 12.1.2 and generally I doubt there is software dependence.
 
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I think part of the issue here is people have different definitions of unattended. Obviously if the child is completely unattended this is not an issue since the phone key won't be near the car.

Except for the 3/4 year old who grabs your phone off the counter, walks outside to the car....There are all kinds of scenarios that can have a small child get into trouble, many of which revolve around a parents attention. Put a baby gate at the top of the stairs..ok until the kid manhandles the gate and it rips out of the wall and slides down the stairs.(yes the gate was properly installed though only with the included crappy wall hardware.)
 

afadeev

Active Member
Feb 28, 2019
1,271
1,452
NYC
The issue here is that there is a gap in the rollaway protection: If you shift to drive (you have to have your foot on the brake to do so), and then IMMEDIATELY shift to the accelerator, you can accelerate. If you wait about one second before accelerating, the car will go back to park (rollaway protection). It is that "gap" that is the safety concern. It is in fact the only real concern.

If you toddler can execute all of the above movements in the right sequence, and can open the driver's door, and you leave him/her unattended to do all of the above ... chances are the kid has already punched the ticket to hang out with Darwin after playing with matches and the gas stove.

Long story short - inquisitive toddlers require attentive supervision.
That's why they have parents.


I am describing a situation which can occur and can be easily avoided through the use of PIN-to-drive, a feature that has previously been known for being a security enhancement. I want to make people aware that if they have small children, they should use PIN-to-drive, as it is a safety enhancement.

PIN is a PITA, and no substitute for parenting.

a
 
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Except for the 3/4 year old who grabs your phone off the counter, walks outside to the car....There are all kinds of scenarios that can have a small child get into trouble, many of which revolve around a parents attention. Put a baby gate at the top of the stairs..ok until the kid manhandles the gate and it rips out of the wall and slides down the stairs.(yes the gate was properly installed though only with the included crappy wall hardware.)
What they revolve around is some children being active and clever enough that you'd need to be the scariest helicopter adult that was doing nothing else to zero out the risks of a child managing to do something. If you have more than one child, then you get in to unhealthy bondage scenarios. :p

Caca happens. Although there are some reasonable steps to take. The "car will drive with phone outside the car" is something that you have to mitigate, and there will come a day that Tesla will do something about it. I'm just hoping it won't lead to unreliable use of the phone as a key inside the car. :/
 
I appreciate your advise, OP. Yeah some of you are definitely excellent parents who keep an eye on your kids at all time. Or would never let your kid climb to a driver seat. Or would do any possible necessary precaution to protect your children. What the OP is suggesting is to prevent ACCIDENTS. Which usually happens unexpectedly. And if it does happen, what comes after that are all the “I could’ve” and “I would’ve”.
 
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If you toddler can execute all of the above movements in the right sequence, and can open the driver's door, and you leave him/her unattended to do all of the above ... chances are the kid has already punched the ticket to hang out with Darwin after playing with matches and the gas stove.
Again, the child does not need to open the door, they can climb from the backseat and there is no sequence necessary to get the car to move. Simply randomly hitting both pedals and yanking down on the drive stalk will make the car move. Most people keep matches out of reach of children because they don't want their children to do stupid things. Even if you're in favor of ill behaved children killing themselves this issue should concern you since they could kill you and would almost certainly survive to kill again.
 
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