PSA: Use PIN-To-Drive or Keycard if you have small children

[CarlK]

Sigh. Not saying we should not do those but a child could still perform the right sequence no matter how hard we make it to including setting up pin to drive. An eight or nine year old would be smart enough to watch and learn from what you do. He/she could even open the window and jump off it. What happened to parental responsibility? That's what the thread title should be if it's really your concern

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I actually admire your passion about this. Thanks for that.

For my life conditions and my boys, there’s not enough risk for me to exchange my convenience.

Thanks. As far as the passion goes, I just try to put myself in the shoes of a toddler who might have to grow up knowing that they ran over and maimed/killed someone else, probably a family member.

I see a clear risk, and I would like as many Model 3 owners (especially those with children) as possible to know about it. Do spread the word to other owners. It's good for the child, it is good for the parents, and it is good for Tesla. Tesla has already provided an extremely robust solution.

I am glad you understand the issue, and since you have assessed your personal risk as minimal, it likely is. Awareness is the key; once they have that, parents can make decisions based on their child's age, proclivities, etc..

AND the child should be taught not to, and should be sensible not to.

Yes, but even very small children can make mistakes (it's not a problem limited to adults, surprisingly enough). As you say, turn on PIN-to-drive as extra protection; it is similar to a child lock in that a child should know not to open the door of a moving car, but sometimes they do! One difference is that the child's natural instincts of self-preservation do not apply in the case of a stationary vehicle, so they won't even understand what they're doing, until the car goes.

AWARENESS of the potential issue is the main purpose of this thread, and why I want people to spread the word to Model 3 owners with young children. Please, if you know any, let them know. Unlike the child lock and seat belt, it's a less obvious hazard. I think most owners would know not to let their child have their phone key (there may be some who would not make the connection, but most would), but they might not be aware of the ease with which the car can be accelerated with the phone simply in the vicinity.

Not saying you should not do those but a child could still perform the right sequence no matter what you have done including even setting up pin to drive. An eight or nine year old would be smart enough to watch and learn from what you do that.

This has already been covered above in various ways. Thanks; we agree that the PIN-to-drive provides additional protection, which is good.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Sigh. Not saying you should not do those but a child could still perform the right sequence no matter what you have done including even setting up pin to drive. An eight or nine year old would be smart enough to watch and learn from what you do that. He/she could even open the window and jump off it. What happened to parental responsibility? That's what the thread title should be if that's really your concern

This thread really has nothing to do with eight or nine year olds. Everyone knows that an eight or nine year old can easily obtain their parents key and start any car. What people clearly did not know is that a two year old can start their car even when they are being supervised. You yourself showed that you did not understand how the interlocks work so implying that all responsible parents know this seems a bit odd.
This thread is all about helping people be responsible parents by informing them of the risks of not securing their car.

 

[CarlK]

This thread really has nothing to do with eight or nine year olds. Everyone knows that an eight or nine year old can easily obtain their parents key and start any car. What people clearly did not know is that a two year old can start their car even when they are being supervised. You yourself showed that you did not understand how the interlocks work so implying that all responsible parents know this seems a bit odd.
This thread is all about helping people be responsible parents by informing them of the risks of not securing their car.

I think you missed the spirit of my post. A two year old could jump off a second floor window easily too. There is no substitute of parental responsibility. Every parent should know where your 2 year old is and what he/she is doing ALL THE TIME.

 

[sixela]

Granted, but who says that you should only have *one* method to avoid disaster? We all try to watch out for our kids. We'd rather have a safety net when we fail, though.

As far as I am considered, I like multiple fail-safes --most accidents are caused by a series of unhappy circumstances--, and adding pin to drive makes it less easy for anyone to get hurt when the other fail-safes do fail.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I think you missed the spirit of my post. A two year old could jump off a second floor window easily too. There is no substitute of parental responsibility. Every parent should know where your 2 year old is and what he/she is doing ALL THE TIME.

That's why you should have windows that a two year old can't jump out of. I think a responsible parent would not rely on their vigilance to prevent a two year old from jumping out the window. It does seem like there are very different opinions on what constitutes responsible parenting. That's fine. This is just a thread to inform people of risks they might not be aware of.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

There is no substitute of parental responsibility.

A responsible parent, once they know about this issue, IF they then assess it as a real risk for themselves and their children and their particular situation, will turn on PIN-to-drive.

This is the whole point of this thread: Provide the information to owners, spread the word to owners (like you, who did not know this was possible), and let them make the decisions for themselves. Awareness is the key. This is not an obvious problem to people. I think everyone understands their car in general is not something their child should be driving, and the child should not have access to the means of driving it. But in this case, there are many people who did not know it was possible for a two-year-old to do this. See this thread for some examples (or use yourself as an example). That is why awareness is important. People base decisions on what they know and their personal risk exposure.

 

[ent3ndu]

What people clearly did not know is that a two year old can start their car

You have to press the brake while moving the shift lever. Is that physically possible for a 2 year old?

 

[Daniel in SD]

You have to press the brake while moving the shift lever. Is that physically possible for a 2 year old?

PSA: Use PIN-To-Drive or Keycard if you have small children

 

[davewill]

@AlanSubie4Life, stop feeding the trolls.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

@AlanSubie4Life, stop feeding the trolls.

It's ok. I don't worry about them! Just trying to stick to the facts as I know them and get the information out there. People can make their own decisions; I just want people to know. There has actually been remarkably little "trolling" in this thread. Just a lot of people expressing their opinions, which they have every right to. I just want the silent majority to have the info, and spread the word!

 

[Knightshade]

Had the key.

Had the key.

Had the key.

Had the key.

This exactly proves the point that OP is trying to make! In effect without using PIN-to-drive you are giving your child the key.
Are you suggesting these as examples of good parenting?

Letting a toddler into the drivers seat is bad parenting.

Doesn't matter if your key is a physical key or a phone-both of which are easy enough for a little kid to grab.

Kid could have 20 keys- if you are actually supervising them it's not an issue.

And a 2 year old should be either:

Strapped into a car seat inside the car
or
Not inside the car.

 

[ent3ndu]

PSA: Use PIN-To-Drive or Keycard if you have small children

K so the kid is holding the bottom of the steering wheel, not touching the shift lever which is higher...

 

[wdolson]

I find it odd that a Model 3 will move with no weight on the driver's seat. I've gotten into my S and while pulling out of the garage lifted up off the seat enough to tug my pant leg down because it was binding and the car went into park. I didn't even fully lift off the seat.

The car will "run" with nobody in the car. I start the car and leave it on when I'm washing it so I can listen to the infotainment system. It stays on for about 20 minutes.

 

[derotam]

I want to make Model 3 owners with small children aware that there is a potential safety issue with the Model 3

Perhaps changing this statement to something along the lines of 'I want to make Model 3 owners with small children aware that they should be careful not to let their child play in the car because they could inadvertently cause the vehicle to roll forward even if the key is not in the vehicle.'

Your OP squarely suggests a "problem", "safety issue", "flaw" with the Model 3 itself which as we see is argued about. Because you made the suggestion of a "potential safety issue with the Model 3", to a lot of people you took away from your PSA intention.

I agree, let people know that there is a way for a small child to possibly make the car move without the key in the car, but framing it as a "safety issue with the Model 3" detracts from your intention.

 

[derotam]

So I am assuming that people who disagree with me are rushing over to NHTSA and filing a formal complaint of a safety issue then? If you truly think there is a safety issue with the car, then file a complaint.

As of today, latest complaint out of 57 on 2018 Tesla Model 3 RWD is from June 3rd....no complaints about this issue.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Letting a toddler into the drivers seat is bad parenting.

In a Model 3 without PIN-to-drive enabled I would definitely agree. The biggest issue is that many owners don't know this. In my informal office survey there are many parents who do let their children in to the drivers seats of their vehicles (while they are close by of course). In other vehicles this is perfectly safe. One of my coworker lets her children into her Model 3! People need to be aware that the novel design of the Model 3 makes it extremely unsafe to do.

Doesn't matter if your key is a physical key or a phone-both of which are easy enough for a little kid to grab.

Kid could have 20 keys- if you are actually supervising them it's not an issue.

You're ignoring the scenarios posted here where there can be an issue even if the child is supervised. If you define supervised as meaning nothing bad ever happens your argument could be used against any sort of childproofing that responsible parents do.

I agree, let people know that there is a way for a small child to possibly make the car move without the key in the car, but framing it as a "safety issue with the Model 3" detracts from your intention.

I think "safety issue" is a very neutral term. One could certainly argue that it's a safety issue with the way people are using the car since if they enable PIN-to-drive then there is no safety issue.
There is a safety issue with second story windows where a child can climb a couch next to the window and fall out. The problem isn't with the design of the window or the couch. You just need to move the couch away from the window.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Here is how.
Model 3 Rollaway Protection

I find it odd that a Model 3 will move with no weight on the driver's seat. I've gotten into my S and while pulling out of the garage lifted up off the seat enough to tug my pant leg down because it was binding and the car went into park. I didn't even fully lift off the seat.

That is normal. The Model 3 will do that as well. It is Rollaway Protection, which is generally excellent on Tesla vehicles. Much safer than other vehicles I own, I think (I actually need to check). However, there is a way to “defeat” it. (The topic here.)
If you would like, you can watch the video in the link above, and carefully and safely, in an open area with no obstacles or people, see if you can “defeat” the rollaway protection in the same way (I suspect you will be able to, and to me it would be surprising if you could not - but we have no info on Model S).

Your OP squarely suggests a .... "flaw"

Actually, it does not, at all. I did not use this word in the OP, so it is unclear why you use quotes. Please do not suggest that I did; I intentionally did not, as I am aware of the “sensitivities” here around “flaws.”

As far as “safety issue,” that seems like a legitimate way to describe this entire topic.

 

[Knightshade]

In a Model 3 without PIN-to-drive enabled I would definitely agree.

Or any car.

Since I already provided links to little kids who drove off in non-tesla cars too.

The biggest issue is that many owners don't know this. In my informal office survey there are many parents who do let their children in to the front seats of their vehicles (while they are close by of course). In other vehicles this is perfectly safe

I mean- no, it's demonstrably not- otherwise none of those other accidents could've happened.

You're ignoring the scenarios posted here where there can be an issue even if the child is supervised.

No, I'm not.

"Letting a kid who should be bucked into a car seat in the back roam freely, and climb into the drivers seat" is not "supervised" by any rational definition of the term.

There is a safety issue with second story windows where a child can climb a couch next to the window and fall out. The problem isn't with the design of the window or the couch. You just need to move the couch away from the window.

Sure- or in this case, for any car, either don't have a little child inside at all, or have them inside buckled into a car seat- which AFAIK is actually required by law in most states.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Or any car.

Since I already provided links to little kids who drove off in non-tesla cars too.

I think we lose track of the point here if we simplify to “all cars can be driven by small children” (which is probably true in general, but not necessarily for a 2-year-old - in some cars it may not be physically possible).

Before posting, I did do some comparisons, and I posted them earlier. There are differences in the interlocks here, and I think it is important to actually understand them rather than gloss over them. See below.

PSA: Use PIN-To-Drive or Keycard if you have small children