PSEG and change to RLM time of use Billing

[gnuarm]

Huh????

There is nothing about distribution that costs more during peak times. Same for transmission and in particular the above rate schedule shows a credit for each kWh used during off peak times for transmission (numbers in parentheses are negative). How can they justify that???

The idea of peak rates is they pay significantly more for generation because plants that sit idle the rest of the day are fired up to generate power for perhaps as short as an hour. Some of those plants may not be fired up for days, then used just an hour or two a day for a couple of dozen days out of the year. That drives the price of a kWh of generation way up, easily 10 or 20 times the normal rate at those peak times. THAT is justifiable. That is why your local utility wants to lower the peak usage, it costs them a ton, and it is hard for them to bill you directly for that expense.

 

[Ejl80]

There is nothing about distribution that costs more during peak times. Same for transmission and in particular the above rate schedule shows a credit for each kWh used during off peak times for transmission (numbers in parentheses are negative). How can they justify that???

The idea of peak rates is they pay significantly more for generation because plants that sit idle the rest of the day are fired up to generate power for perhaps as short as an hour. Some of those plants may not be fired up for days, then used just an hour or two a day for a couple of dozen days out of the year. That drives the price of a kWh of generation way up, easily 10 or 20 times the normal rate at those peak times. THAT is justifiable. That is why your local utility wants to lower the peak usage, it costs them a ton, and it is hard for them to bill you directly for that expense.

Where were you getting .14 for transmission from that table? And I'm assuming transmission costs go up if they have to purchase power from other areas during peak times.

 

[gnuarm]

Where were you getting .14 for transmission from that table? And I'm assuming transmission costs go up if they have to purchase power from other areas during peak times.

I don't know how to explain that. It's in the table under "Transmission charge" for RLM. Can you not find that?

Yeah, they might need to pay more transmission charges, but the amount is insane. My generation charges including transmission is far less than that. But for it to pay back to the consumer during off peak times literally makes no sense.

 

[Ejl80]

I don't know how to explain that. It's in the table under "Transmission charge" for RLM. Can you not find that?

Yeah, they might need to pay more transmission charges, but the amount is insane. My generation charges including transmission is far less than that. But for it to pay back to the consumer during off peak times literally makes no sense.

The transmission charges for RLM are .016 off peak and winter and .076 peak summer.... nowhere are they .14. Again, not sure what you are seeing.

 

[gnuarm]

The transmission charges for RLM are .016 off peak and winter and .076 peak summer.... nowhere are they .14. Again, not sure what you are seeing.

Ah, there's the problem. You are looking at DISTRIBUTION charges, not TRANSMISSION. Transmission charges are at the very bottom of the table. They are often considered to be part of "Electric Supply Charges" and in fact, are frequently not separated, so you get one rate that includes both.

In this case, they only list one set of transmission charges, not different for season. I find it very, very odd that the fee for off peak is negative, a refund on all power used off peak. Strange. I can't think of any rationale for why they did this.

 

[Ejl80]

Ah, there's the problem. You are looking at DISTRIBUTION charges, not TRANSMISSION. Transmission charges are at the very bottom of the table. They are often considered to be part of "Electric Supply Charges" and in fact, are frequently not separated, so you get one rate that includes both.

In this case, they only list one set of transmission charges, not different for season. I find it very, very odd that the fee for off peak is negative, a refund on all power used off peak. Strange. I can't think of any rationale for why they did this.

Interesting. I can tell you I don't pay that charge listed at the bottom, I pay based on this chart:

Price to Compare (PTC) for Electric & Gas - PSE&G

View the most recent Price to Compare (PTC) for electric and gas service. PTC is the price that PSE&G will charge for the supply portion of your service.

nj.pseg.com

Note 6 which is cut off of that picture says
"Basic Generation Service (BGS) Supply Charges associated with Residential Small Commercial Pricing (RSCP) customers were

split into its component charges, the BGS-Energy & Capacity Charge and the BGS-Transmission Charge."

 

[gnuarm]

Interesting. I can tell you I don't pay that charge listed at the bottom, I pay based on this chart:

Price to Compare (PTC) for Electric & Gas - PSE&G

View the most recent Price to Compare (PTC) for electric and gas service. PTC is the price that PSE&G will charge for the supply portion of your service.

nj.pseg.com

Note 6 which is cut off of that picture says
"Basic Generation Service (BGS) Supply Charges associated with Residential Small Commercial Pricing (RSCP) customers were
View attachment 773465
split into its component charges, the BGS-Energy & Capacity Charge and the BGS-Transmission Charge."

Ok, but that chart also had different rates for transmission under RLM, notably zero for off peak and significant (~$0.12 per kWh) for on peak.

So your total RLM charges off peak are under $0.05 per kWh, but rise to around $0.25 per kWh on peak. That's pretty amazing and shows the difficulties of supplying power to highly variable loads.
So many energy consuming devices in our homes are dispatchable, but we do little to schedule them. I never run the clothes drying during peak times, not because I'm on ToU, but because I know the impact. Most people don't even know what "peak time" means for electric usage.

The scheduling issues we talk about for BEVs would also apply to many other appliances if they were just today coming online. On average a BEV uses less power than a hot water heater. Yet we don't schedule that. Actually, years ago when I was a kid, I remember having two meters. One was on the hot water heater and cut off the power during peak hours for a better rate. I don't know how long that was used, but at some point it was taken out. I expect they had trouble with setting the timer after power failures.

I was looking at buying a rental property once that had brick heat. It was straight electric, but heated a pile of bricks that continued to give off heat during peak time when the power was cut off. Separate meters and a special, low rate.

 

[Olly_]

Interesting. I can tell you I don't pay that charge listed at the bottom, I pay based on this chart:

Do you have a similar meter to the one I posted on the previous page?

 

[Ejl80]

Do you have a similar meter to the one I posted on the previous page?

Similar. Mine was made in 2016. Focus FAXR without the extra letters.

 

[Olly_]

Thought I'd update this in case anybody else runs into a similar issue...

I received a bill about a month after the meter change and it was still RS flat rate. I called customer service who didn't really understand the problem at all but said they'd open a ticket for the billing team who would get back to me in a few days.

I heard nothing so I filed a complaint with the BPU online and two days later somebody from PSE&G's executive office who actually knew what they were talking about called me and said that they had installed the wrong meter and it needed to be changed.

They then called back the next day to say that actually the meter was correct, the incorrect bill would be cancelled and I would be re-billed at the RLM rate so they did have the data after all.

I'm still not totally convinced it's 100% correct though, there seems to be a bit more off peak export than my SolarEdge inverter has recorded so I'll wait and see what this month's bill brings.

 

[gnuarm]

Thought I'd update this in case anybody else runs into a similar issue...

I received a bill about a month after the meter change and it was still RS flat rate. I called customer service who didn't really understand the problem at all but said they'd open a ticket for the billing team who would get back to me in a few days.

I heard nothing so I filed a complaint with the BPU online and two days later somebody from PSE&G's executive office who actually knew what they were talking about called me and said that they had installed the wrong meter and it needed to be changed.

They then called back the next day to say that actually the meter was correct, the incorrect bill would be cancelled and I would be re-billed at the RLM rate so they did have the data after all.

I'm still not totally convinced it's 100% correct though, there seems to be a bit more off peak export than my SolarEdge inverter has recorded so I'll wait and see what this month's bill brings.

I had similar confusion with my utility. Seems they give limited attention to the correct operation of their billing systems, probably because mostly it just works. But when you do something a bit different... bugs creep in. I twice caught them flubbing my bill that cost me extra. More recently, they can't seem to make my meter readings visible on a web page graph. I use this from time to check on my usage in relation to the temperature. It helps me gauge if the heating and cooling are working properly.

 

[Stretch2727]

Thought I'd update this in case anybody else runs into a similar issue...

I received a bill about a month after the meter change and it was still RS flat rate. I called customer service who didn't really understand the problem at all but said they'd open a ticket for the billing team who would get back to me in a few days.

I heard nothing so I filed a complaint with the BPU online and two days later somebody from PSE&G's executive office who actually knew what they were talking about called me and said that they had installed the wrong meter and it needed to be changed.

They then called back the next day to say that actually the meter was correct, the incorrect bill would be cancelled and I would be re-billed at the RLM rate so they did have the data after all.

I'm still not totally convinced it's 100% correct though, there seems to be a bit more off peak export than my SolarEdge inverter has recorded so I'll wait and see what this month's bill brings.

Did you get your issue resolved? They do mess up with meters. I had the wrong meter for a time with RLM and solar. It was spreading my solar output over the entire 24 hours which was very odd. It took an email to the PSEG CEO and a BPU complaint to get it fixed.

I can take a picture of my meter if you need it.

 

[Olly_]

Did you get your issue resolved? They do mess up with meters. I had the wrong meter for a time with RLM and solar. It was spreading my solar output over the entire 24 hours which was very odd. It took an email to the PSEG CEO and a BPU complaint to get it fixed.

I can take a picture of my meter if you need it.

Yes I did, thanks. This month's bill is +/- 1kWh compared to my SolarEdge/PVOutput figures.

My solar array isn't large enough to cover all of my usage but I think the peak credits I'm building now will take me through the winter and I'll basically end up only paying the off peak rate of about $0.07/kWh which is great.

 

[Stretch2727]

Yes I did, thanks. This month's bill is +/- 1kWh compared to my SolarEdge/PVOutput figures.

My solar array isn't large enough to cover all of my usage but I think the peak credits I'm building now will take me through the winter and I'll basically end up only paying the off peak rate of about $0.07/kWh which is great.

Good to see someone else actually get set up with this! You can always charge the car during peak to use up the credits. I did leave some credits last year on my balance out month and only got about $0.04/Kwh credit so better to use them up.

I think PSEG is now offering off peak for an EV only if you buy an EV charger which they can monitor usage. Not sure if they raise the service fee like they do with the off peak RLM rate for the whole house. I still think swapping the meter and going to the RLM rate for the entire house is a better deal. They certainly do not make it easy.

 

[Olly_]

I am a bit annoyed that I didn't do the sums before because based on my usage last year it would have saved me $250 and that was without shifting my usage (running more A/C during peak times, running the dishwasher during the day, charging the car at peak times etc.) so I imagine the savings will actually be larger now I'm doing things slightly differently.

If you have solar but it doesn't cover all of your usage then check it out!

 

[Stretch2727]

So PSEG now has a specific EV program for charging.

Electric Vehicle (EV) Charging Program - PSE&G

New Jersey is on track to become one of America's leading states for transportation electrification, and PSE&G is helping to make it happen. Through our Electric Vehicle Charging Program, we're supporting the large-scale deployment of residential, mixed-use (commercial), and public Direct...

nj.myaccount.pseg.com

It's great that they pay $1500 for the charger installation including charger, but the night time discount is only $0.02 per KwH. It needs a wifi enabled charger to work. Only the power that get used by the charger gets the discount.

Whole house time of use rates (RLM) give you a discount of about $0.14 per KwH but they increase the service charge about $10. So you only need to charge about 83KwH per month to have it be a better deal. (0.14-0.02)/10=83.3.

I think for most people it will make more sense to try to get the whole house (RLM) set up. We use about 500-600Kwh charging the cars per month and I think this will be pretty typical. This saves you about $60 per month, just on charging. Remember the whole house is getting the discount on weekends and night so the real savings can be higher. The EV Program using a wifi enabled charger will only save you about $10 a month (500*$0.02) =$10 but has the upfront reward of paying for the charger installation.

I know PSEG can be difficult to get the time of use rates/meter. I would still try to go this direction as the savings are so much better, especially if you already have a charger installed. I honestly think PSEG put this EV program in place to avoid too many people trying to go on full home time of use. People will get set up on the EV program and think, great I got my charger paid for and I am getting a discount.

What I am not sure of is if you can get both programs. I doubt they will do it, but I read though eligibility and it does not seem to exclude the time of use program. The point is you may get the $1500 for the charger but they may not further discount your rate at night if you are already on time of use or try to switch to time of use. There is a federal tax credit on charger of 30% that could also be used to offset the charger installation cost

Anyway, I will try to monitor this thread. Just wanted to make people aware of this program and the pro/cons.

 

[Scarletfever]

So PSEG now has a specific EV program for charging.

Electric Vehicle (EV) Charging Program - PSE&G

New Jersey is on track to become one of America's leading states for transportation electrification, and PSE&G is helping to make it happen. Through our Electric Vehicle Charging Program, we're supporting the large-scale deployment of residential, mixed-use (commercial), and public Direct...

nj.myaccount.pseg.com

It's great that they pay $1500 for the charger installation including charger, but the night time discount is only $0.02 per KwH. It needs a wifi enabled charger to work. Only the power that get used by the charger gets the discount.

Whole house time of use rates (RLM) give you a discount of about $0.14 per KwH but they increase the service charge about $10. So you only need to charge about 83KwH per month to have it be a better deal. (0.14-0.02)/10=83.3.

I think for most people it will make more sense to try to get the whole house (RLM) set up. We use about 500-600Kwh charging the cars per month and I think this will be pretty typical. This saves you about $60 per month, just on charging. Remember the whole house is getting the discount on weekends and night so the real savings can be higher. The EV Program using a wifi enabled charger will only save you about $10 a month (500*$0.02) =$10 but has the upfront reward of paying for the charger installation.

I know PSEG can be difficult to get the time of use rates/meter. I would still try to go this direction as the savings are so much better, especially if you already have a charger installed. I honestly think PSEG put this EV program in place to avoid too many people trying to go on full home time of use. People will get set up on the EV program and think, great I got my charger paid for and I am getting a discount.

What I am not sure of is if you can get both programs. I doubt they will do it, but I read though eligibility and it does not seem to exclude the time of use program. The point is you may get the $1500 for the charger but they may not further discount your rate at night if you are already on time of use or try to switch to time of use. There is a federal tax credit on charger of 30% that could also be used to offset the charger installation cost

Anyway, I will try to monitor this thread. Just wanted to make people aware of this program and the pro/cons.

Based on the link that you posted, I believe the 1500 just goes towards any electrical upgrades needed in the house (i.e. breaker upgrades, outlet installation) but not the charger itself.

I'm not sure I understand your RLM math. You're saying that you only need to charge 83 KwH/month to make up the increased service charge, but don't you also need to factor in the increased cost of peak electricity?

 

[Stretch2727]

Based on the link that you posted, I believe the 1500 just goes towards any electrical upgrades needed in the house (i.e. breaker upgrades, outlet installation) but not the charger itself.

I'm not sure I understand your RLM math. You're saying that you only need to charge 83 KwH/month to make up the increased service charge, but don't you also need to factor in the increased cost of peak electricity?

Ok, I looked at the fine print and you are correct it does not include the charger! Very odd considering they are specifying which chargers to use. Anyway this makes this program even less attractive and there are other rebates/credits to help with charger.

From my experience the average price per KwH will drop on RLM without considering the load shifting you can do with an EV.

40% of the hours in a week are on peak. Worse case you may end up with 60% of the house usage being on peak which still translates to saving a few cents per kWh just for the house using the worst case summer on peak rates. In the winter you will save even more.

On top of that you add the savings for the EV which will be aways be off peak. This is how I calculated the savings to offset the service charge as I was already assuming the average price per KwH would be lower for the house only.

 

[Scarletfever]

Ok, I looked at the fine print and you are correct it does not include the charger! Very odd considering they are specifying which chargers to use. Anyway this makes this program even less attractive and there are other rebates/credits to help with charger.

From my experience the average price per KwH will drop on RLM without considering the load shifting you can do with an EV.

40% of the hours in a week are on peak. Worse case you may end up with 60% of the house usage being on peak which still translates to saving a few cents per kWh just for the house using the worst case summer on peak rates. In the winter you will save even more.

On top of that you add the savings for the EV which will be aways be off peak. This is how I calculated the savings to offset the service charge as I was already assuming the average price per KwH would be lower for the house only.

Got it, makes sense. Because we mainly work from home and are often out on weekends, I’m not sure that would necessarily apply to us, but I’ll have to try doing the math.

 

[NYHeel]

So PSEG now has a specific EV program for charging.

Electric Vehicle (EV) Charging Program - PSE&G

New Jersey is on track to become one of America's leading states for transportation electrification, and PSE&G is helping to make it happen. Through our Electric Vehicle Charging Program, we're supporting the large-scale deployment of residential, mixed-use (commercial), and public Direct...

nj.myaccount.pseg.com

It's great that they pay $1500 for the charger installation including charger, but the night time discount is only $0.02 per KwH. It needs a wifi enabled charger to work. Only the power that get used by the charger gets the discount.

Whole house time of use rates (RLM) give you a discount of about $0.14 per KwH but they increase the service charge about $10. So you only need to charge about 83KwH per month to have it be a better deal. (0.14-0.02)/10=83.3.

I think for most people it will make more sense to try to get the whole house (RLM) set up. We use about 500-600Kwh charging the cars per month and I think this will be pretty typical. This saves you about $60 per month, just on charging. Remember the whole house is getting the discount on weekends and night so the real savings can be higher. The EV Program using a wifi enabled charger will only save you about $10 a month (500*$0.02) =$10 but has the upfront reward of paying for the charger installation.

I know PSEG can be difficult to get the time of use rates/meter. I would still try to go this direction as the savings are so much better, especially if you already have a charger installed. I honestly think PSEG put this EV program in place to avoid too many people trying to go on full home time of use. People will get set up on the EV program and think, great I got my charger paid for and I am getting a discount.

What I am not sure of is if you can get both programs. I doubt they will do it, but I read though eligibility and it does not seem to exclude the time of use program. The point is you may get the $1500 for the charger but they may not further discount your rate at night if you are already on time of use or try to switch to time of use. There is a federal tax credit on charger of 30% that could also be used to offset the charger installation cost

Anyway, I will try to monitor this thread. Just wanted to make people aware of this program and the pro/cons.

I'm not sure how you're successfully using the RLM rates with Solar. Let's forget the EV for a minute. I typically produces about 12,000-12,500 kWh a year and use around 13,000 - 13,500 kWh a year. My year is set to start with my March bill (next bill is a new year) and I start to build up a credit and then typically exhaust the credit around August-September. For this year that just ended in February 2023, I paid for 850 kWh plus the $4.95 monthly charge. Total annual electric fees were about $200. If I used the RLM plan with the separate buckets that PSE&G enforces (this is very unfortunate), I assume that I'd likely end with a significant credit of peak production while I'd be paying for off-peak usage. The credit wouldn't be helpful since it's only worth about 4 cents per kWh at year end (one year I overproduced) and I'd be paying significantly more in off peak excess usage. Add in that my biggest usage day is Saturday, by far, as I'm a Sabbath observer and spend a lot of time home on Saturday. I have my AC running most of the day on Saturday. However, I'm also a big night time AC user as I need it cold when I sleep.

The only change for me is that I'm taking delivery of a Model 3 tomorrow morning, god willing. Obviously my usage is going to up a lot though I'm probably only going to drive about 5,000 - 6,000 miles per year. At current rates I'm likely going to be paying about 18 cents per kWh despite my solar. Does this change anything for using RLM? My only thought is that I might be able to specifically charge during peak times since I'd have excess peak production that I'd need to use. Just not sure how it would all balance out.

I do know that they changed my meter out about a year ago to a smart meter but they haven't actually enabled any of the capabilities yet. I'd love for them to be able to run my prior year and see my usage and production with peak vs. off-peak. This would actually give me useful data to make a decision. Absent any real data I can't actually see how RLM will be better.