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Public service announcement for P+ owners

Discussion in 'Model S: Driving Dynamics' started by KOL2000, Jun 17, 2014.

  1. KOL2000

    KOL2000 Member

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    #1 KOL2000, Jun 17, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2014
    According to my service center you can expect rear tires that wear after 5000 miles to be normal. Even if they are worn on the innermost centimeter with only the cords showing as we have all seen in numerous threads including at Edmunds.

    Here is what my SA sent me today (note that my cords were already showing after 5k miles):

    "I just wanted to drop you a line with regards to the tire wear on your Model S. In your previous email you had indicated that you didn’t understand my statement with regards to average tire longevity and rotation on the non plus suspension. To clarify, the tires that currently on the rear axle of your Model S have been there for 6,141 miles (Replaced January 21 @ 9,355 miles), in the case of the Non-Plus suspension cars, we can perform a rotation at 5 k to extend the life of those tires and subsequently subject the front tire to the rigors of being in the rear.

    I see that you also seemed to be very concerned with the toe setting, looking at your previous alignment, it is perfect and I do not see how that would give you the acute edge wear with which you are concerned. The toe setting being grossly out would typically yield an uneven or chopped wear pattern over the tread of the tire. The product (Adjustable upper link)in the thread you sent, is designed to give a greater degree of camber adjustment. While our rear camber setting may seem high, it is equivocal to other high performance sedans (BMW 5 Series) on the market. We feel that this setting is integral to the handling and traction attributes of the Model S.
    Our stance would never be that you have to bring your car to an aftermarket repair facility to fix anything on it. With that being said We are not at liberty to augment the camber & toe settings beyond factory tolerance or install aftermarket pieces. We feel that ”fix” is not necessarily the best label for what you are proposing. It would probably be more correct to call it Modifying your car in an attempt to potentially trade off greater tire longevity for diminished handling and emergency maneuverability.

    We can certainly replace the tires and proactively confirm that your alignment is still as we left it from your previous visit. What we can’t do is set the false expectation of a different result. The projected longevity of the tires from the manufacturer is 20,000 miles of normal driving before you half that due to the staggered fitment. So realistically, the best case, if you absolutely baby this thing is 10,000 miles. Most people do not drive our car with the performance drive train in such a manner, so you start working backwards from that potential 10,000 mile mark."


    So basically if you buy a P+ be forewarned that you will see uneven tire wear in the rear, you will be liable for the tires, and there's basically nothing that can be done (engineering wise) to fix this.

    I know there are many threads on this topic but they are scattered and we haven't gotten anything official from Tesla. I do think it's misleading that they don't inform owners that their tires will be toast in 5k miles since it offsets some of the positive environmental impact of the car. For some people they will be changing tires every 2 months....

    That said it's still worth it and wouldn't trade my car for anything else out there...

    NOTE: The service center has been incredibly kind and patient with me and in fact changed the tires out twice already due to misalignment. My inquiry was due to the threads on this forum where some people claimed (lolachampar) to have solved this problem.
     
  2. Wantap85

    Wantap85 Member

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    is this related to the P+ suspension or just the 21 inch wheels or both? Based on the comment and anyone's experience do you believe P85 with 21s would have the same issues?
     
  3. jhs_7645

    jhs_7645 VIN: #3305

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    I have a P85 with 21” that I rotate frequently, I also swap them with 19” in the winter. I have 17k on my car and 10k on the 21” and the still have plenty of tread (perhaps another 5k?). So no, I would say this is not as much of an issue with the P85.
     
  4. zwede

    zwede 2013 P85+

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    I really like my SC and they try very hard to be perfect.

    That said, they did an alignment on my P85+. The printout showed they had set 0.16 dgr rear toe-in. When I measured it myself I found 0.80 dgr toe-out. Once I adjusted it to 0.25 dgr toe-in my energy usage decreased and it rides smoother. My tire wear slowed down after that. Currently I have 6K miles on the tires and still have some left before the wear bars. The wear on the inside groove (not edge) is 1mm more than the outer groove. There is no excessive wear on the inner shoulder. 4K of the 6K miles was as an inventory car (hard test drives) with bad alignment. I think 10K-12K is to be expected out of the rear Michelin PS2s when everything is correct.

    - - - Updated - - -

    But do you have Michelin PS2's? The PS2's wear quicker than the Continentals.
     
  5. swegman

    swegman Member

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    I have a P85 (not P85+) that had the 21 inch tires with Michelin PS2 tires. I had the SC rotate the tires every 4,000 miles and had 2 alignment checks performed (first time adjustments were needed; second time the settings were spot on). After 8,000 miles, the SC told me that I only have about 3,000 miles of thread remaining on the tires.
     
  6. JohnnyMac

    JohnnyMac Member

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    I posted the details below on another thread recently. This is applicable and may be the only solution to the staggered set up wear issues. No doubt Tesla will not do this for you but your independent shop most likely will as mine did.
    -----------
    For what it's worth, with spirited driving, my 21 inch Continentals have made it to 14,000 miles with fairly uneven wear. The inside is a mm or so away from the wear bars but the outside still has over half the tread remaining. I have been very diligent about the tires - check pressure regularly, have had the car aligned two times, and had the camber bolts installed as soon as they came out. All that considered, the car still has a lot of inside camber wear both in the front and rear regardless of rotating the tires as recommended every 4-6k miles. I really wish I had done this sooner, but I just took @lola's advice (perhaps it was really more of a suggestion than advice) and had my tire shop dismount and remount all four tires and am now running them with the inside on the outside and vice versa. I feel I'll easily get another 5 to 6k miles on these by the end of summer. I won't push it once winter arrives and will go with new rubber all around but will be happy if I can get 18-20k out of these. Even with the current uneven wear pattern, the car drives the same as it did before remounting. It does not pull or exhibit any unusual noise or handling characteristics whatsoever. On my next set of tires, I will definitely be doing the same thing and running them inside out but will probably make that change earlier perhaps when it gets to 9-10k miles and the tread wear is still a bit more even. I really feel that this is the only way to get any even and reasonable wear out of the 21s. By the way, my tire shop had no issues mounting the tires this way and the asymmetrical tread is so similar on each side that there was really no concern. And if you look at a new Continental DW extreme, the outside labeled side appears to have a bit thicker shoulder tread which would be better suited to run on the inside of the MS. The only possible concern we discussed is that in heavy rain, the tread pattern could displace more rainwater to the underside of the car than to the outside of the car, but honestly, the pattern is so similar and summer oriented that I doubt even this would be an issue. Just sharing my experience so far. Your mileage may vary.
     
  7. gnelson

    gnelson Member

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    I have a P85+. I replaced my original tires at 13400 mi. they had 5/32 left of the rears. I probably could have gone to 15k mi. I replaced the tires with Michelin Pilot Super Sport to extend the mileage with improved performance.
     
  8. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    The problem here is that the SC sets the alignment to spec, which falls in a pretty wide spectrum. As long as it's in spec, they really don't care to modify it further. This is why there are owners with great tire longevity, and some that replace tires all the time. Having said that, claiming to have the "best service", and then only doing the bare minimum doesn't really jive. These cars really need careful attention when setting the alignment, or they will devour tires.
     
  9. simplesolar

    simplesolar Member

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    I swapped to michelin pilot sport and to 20" wheels. I now have 22,000 miles on it already and still have thread left. The front should make it to 35-50k no problem the rear maybe to 30,000 miles.

     
  10. HHHH

    HHHH Member

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    Why'd you replace so early? You still had 5/32 left, you could go down to 2/32 at most, or 3/32 at least.
     
  11. yobigd20

    yobigd20 Well-Known Member

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    Yea.... 48k miles on 19" and I had 4/32" when I replaced them. Just sayin...

    This whole inside edge wear thing is a design defect. 5k miles is every 4-5 weeks driving for me. Tesla should just flat out stop offering 21s as an option. This isn't right that they think it's ok that 5k wear is normal. It's not even close to normal. We're not stupid either. They sure as hell know its a design defect but they won't admit it because a real fix would be too costly. Imagine if they had to recall and pay for retrofitting new suspension parts on all cars (this isn't just for P85+ or 21" wheels, this is every single car produced, even mine at high mileage I replaced due to inside edge wear, I could have got another 10k out of them if it weren't for that) and reimbursing everyone who had to replace tires early due to inside edge wear. Your talking probably $100-$200mil or more in cost. Probably much higher.
     
  12. yobigd20

    yobigd20 Well-Known Member

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    Why doesn't somebody bring this up to Elon and point out how many threads there are here and on Facebook and TM forums and how many hundreds if not thousands of known owners and how many pissed off owners there are that feel duped by Tesla with regards to inside edge wear??
     
  13. Panacea

    Panacea TSLA Shareholder/Believer

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    I have a P85 with 21 inch Contis on. At 10K miles I had to replace my rear driver side tire due to the cord showing. I do not drive spiritedly and I had the wheels rotated twice. Had to pay for a new tire.
     
  14. gnelson

    gnelson Member

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    The SC said I had 4/32. I went from 8/32 to 4/32 in a short period of time. When I got the new tires, I looked at them and they did not need replacement. I asked Firestone to measure them. They measured 5/32. I figured that if they had gone from 8/32 to 4/32 in a short period of time that I would hit 2/32 really quick. WRONG!

    I do like the Pilot Super Sport better than the Pilot Sport 2.
     
  15. achaar

    achaar Member

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    What size Super Sports did you get? I also have a P85+ (brown too) but thought that the PSS's weren't available for it. I have 17k on my original set of PS2s but probably will need replacement by 20k.
     
  16. HHHH

    HHHH Member

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    What do you like about the PSS's over the PS2's? I'm sure I'll be due for a replacement set in the next 6 months or so.
     
  17. drees

    drees Active Member

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    Bolded and underlined for emphasis.

    If the alignment racks are not set up properly and miscalibrated, no wonder so many tires are tearing up the inside shoulder of the rear tires!!!

    That's a 1 degree discrepancy which is HUGE.
     
  18. yobigd20

    yobigd20 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah that is quite disturbing to hear. I heard about the machines being programmed wrong early on but it seems as if they may still be plagued with these type of serious issues.
     
  19. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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  20. yobigd20

    yobigd20 Well-Known Member

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    #20 yobigd20, Jun 19, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2014
    How did they solve that problem?

    Interesting to find that the NHSTA started investigating after 8 complaints. We probably have at least 100 complaints just on this forum alone, not counting TM forums or Facebook or google groups.

    Fyi there is already an NHSTA complaint on the model S for rear tire wear. I guess they just need more complaints from owners. It's obvious Tesla is still blowing off most customers regarding this issue by telling them 5k is normal wear. The only thing they are doing is documenting their own negligence.
     

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