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Punished by Autosteer for no reason!

astrorob

stealth performance M3
Aug 27, 2014
536
131
oakland, ca
took a trip to LA in the M3 and had a good time charging at the massive new SC at Firebaugh... on the trip home the autosteer kept complaining that my hands were not on the wheel... they absolutely were - it seems to want way more steering input than is necessary to detect hands on the wheel.

to my surprise eventually AS punished me with the "disabled for the rest of this trip" message. i get that the M3 is all about cost reduction but they really need a better driver attention/hands on wheel system. i wasn't about to pull over to end the trip so i had to keep driving I5 manually (well, the speed control worked, but no more auto steer) until the next SC stop.

that sucked. hope future software releases can refine this somehow.
 
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took a trip to LA in the M3 and had a good time charging at the massive new SC at Firebaugh... on the trip home the autosteer kept complaining that my hands were not on the wheel... they absolutely were - it seems to want way more steering input than is necessary to detect hands on the wheel.

to my surprise eventually AS punished me with the "disabled for the rest of this trip" message. i get that the M3 is all about cost reduction but they really need a better driver attention/hands on wheel system. i wasn't about to pull over to end the trip so i had to keep driving I5 manually (well, the speed control worked, but no more auto steer) until the next SC stop.

that sucked. hope future software releases can refine this somehow.
I find the input needed varies, we rarely get warnings anymore, they seemed excessive when we first purchased our M3, if I do get a warning, I just give the wheel a slight turn, or if a finger is close to one of the wheels a touch in any direction.
 

arnolddeleon

Member
Supporting Member
Jul 21, 2012
995
1,065
SF Bay Area
Considering the OP has been a member since 2014 and has almost 400 posts, I’m assuming they know to torque. But I’ve been wrong many times.
The subject didn't indicate that awareness (". . .no reason"). I figured it was better to not assume and actually provide something useful. 🤷
 
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jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Moderator
Nov 28, 2018
14,261
17,997
Riverside Co. CA
Considering the OP has been a member since 2014 and has almost 400 posts, I’m assuming they know to torque. But I’ve been wrong many times.

Reading the OPs post, I got the same thing that @arnolddeleon did. nothing in the OPs post indicates they are putting torque on the steering wheel. The thread title isnt correct in my opinion, though. The OP was obviously put in AP jail for not putting enough torque on the wheel, so it wasnt " for no reason" (according to the car).

Now, whether there should be another system for detecting hands on wheel or something, thats another discussion, but it wasnt "punished for no reason".
 

arnolddeleon

Member
Supporting Member
Jul 21, 2012
995
1,065
SF Bay Area
Reading the OPs post, I got the same thing that @arnolddeleon did. nothing in the OPs post indicates they are putting torque on the steering wheel. The thread title isnt correct in my opinion, though. The OP was obviously put in AP jail for not putting enough torque on the wheel, so it wasnt " for no reason" (according to the car).

Now, whether there should be another system for detecting hands on wheel or something, thats another discussion, but it wasnt "punished for no reason".
I should make it clear there is nothing wrong with not knowing the difference between "hands on wheel" vs "applying torque to the wheel". Certainly the early warnings said "hands on wheel" and the icons doesn't make it obvious. I wouldn't blame most drivers for not knowing the difference.
 

astrorob

stealth performance M3
Aug 27, 2014
536
131
oakland, ca
jeez louise you guys, i said “steering input”. steering input requires torque. by “no reason” i meant that whatever torques i was putting on the steering wheel at 80mph were not enough to make the computer happy. my hands were on the wheel 95% of the time. the other 5% i was getting a drink of water.

i can’t be the only one this has happened to. really they need some kind of capacitive touch sensing to detect if the driver’s hands are on the wheel.

i didn’t know that the scroll wheels would satisfy it. so i guess i need to keep adjusting the music volume or cruise control speed as a proxy for steering inputs if i do this again.
 
i get that the M3 is all about cost reduction but they really need a better driver attention/hands on wheel system
FYI, the S/X use the same system. It's not about cost reduction in the 3. It's about the fact that Tesla believed this would be an L4 system years ago and no human sensing would be needed at all, so they put minimal effort into it.
 

astrorob

stealth performance M3
Aug 27, 2014
536
131
oakland, ca
FYI, the S/X use the same system. It's not about cost reduction in the 3. It's about the fact that Tesla believed this would be an L4 system years ago and no human sensing would be needed at all, so they put minimal effort into it.

i suppose that is probably true if the older models do the same. i guess to me it's silly that i still have to "drive the car" when auto steer is on. i 100% understand the need for driver attention and being able to take over quickly from the computer but it really diminishes the system if i have to keep remembering to turn the wheel enough that the computer is happy. maybe they can tune the system more, who knows.
 

arnolddeleon

Member
Supporting Member
Jul 21, 2012
995
1,065
SF Bay Area
i suppose that is probably true if the older models do the same. i guess to me it's silly that i still have to "drive the car" when auto steer is on. i 100% understand the need for driver attention and being able to take over quickly from the computer but it really diminishes the system if i have to keep remembering to turn the wheel enough that the computer is happy. maybe they can tune the system more, who knows.
For me, as long as I'm still the driver in the charge, the interactions with car needed to to demonstrate I'm alert and aware is a major feature not a bug. I rarely get the "blue flashing" warning even on the long drives. The biggest value of autopilot for me is checking on me. I think of it as the game to keep the "nanny" away. Am I engaged enough to prevent avoid tripping the it? The lane keeping and cruise control are great in that they reduce my workload and I can spend my energy on being situationally aware and checking in with the computer.

The volume/speed knobs are really an easy way to satisfy the hands on wheel requirement. With the speed you just roll up and down quickly so you don't even change speeds. But don't even it need to that often. I usually either resist the steering movements a little bit or actively push a little bit when the car is making small steering movements. I find that keeps me in tune with what the car is doing. I use Navigate on Autopilot a lot and when it is doing a lane change I make sure I'm either pushing with or pulling against the car. I guess I've also gotten pretty synced with car that I can make a gentle pull on the wheel and satisfy the torque requirement without jerking the car/dropping out it autosteer. My wife struggled with this and was very happy to learn about the knobs alternative.

Does someone know if flicking the PRND stalk down also satisfies the hands on wheel check? I will sometimes have a finger on my right hand ready to flick up if I think I might take control. The only time I've triggered AP jail was when accelerated hard (easy to get past 90) to "escape" a situation. Now I will flick up in situations that I want to take over to avoid a "fight" with the car.
 
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astrorob

stealth performance M3
Aug 27, 2014
536
131
oakland, ca
I usually either resist the steering movements a little bit or actively push a little bit when the car is making small steering movements.

problem is, i was driving on I5 which is straight as an arrow for 100s of miles and the car was not really making any small steering movements. so i'm actually having to push it around in the lane to get it to detect that i'm still there. which, IMO, is really not that safe at 70-80mph.

i mean, really, driver in charge or not, the utility of the feature on long, straight drives is marginal if it's going to wrongly decide you're not engaged enough.

what about the driver facing camera? is that still not hooked up to anything?
 
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i guess to me it's silly that i still have to "drive the car" when auto steer is on. t really diminishes the system if i have to keep remembering to turn the wheel enough that the computer is happy.

I guess to me it's silly that you ignored THREE warnings (hands on wheel dialog, then the flashing blue screen, then the audio ALERT TO PUT YOUR HANDS ON THE WHEEL), and you ignored these three warnings three times.

That'll put you in autopilot jail. You might want to watch when it initially asks you to torque the wheel, do so, and confirm your car responded accordingly.
 
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astrorob

stealth performance M3
Aug 27, 2014
536
131
oakland, ca
I guess to me it's silly that you ignored THREE warnings (hands on wheel dialog, then the flashing blue screen, then the audio ALERT TO PUT YOUR HANDS ON THE WHEEL), and you ignored these three warnings three times.

That'll put you in autopilot jail. You might want to watch when it initially asks you to torque the wheel, do so, and confirm your car responded accordingly.

i did not ignore the warnings! when the warnings came up the torque i applied was not enough and the warnings would not go away until i applied more torque than i felt comfortable with at 80mph. the warnings kept coming back despite my best efforts to move the wheel without being prompted. and my hands were on the wheel the whole time! that is the point of my post. i was not driving distracted, i was not sitting in the back seat, i was not sitting with my hands in my lap. MY HANDS WERE ON THE WHEEL for the duration of the trip.

how hard is this to understand? what the car is asking of me, i can't provide, despite my hands being on the steering wheel. i was punished because a group of software designers decided the steering inputs i feel comfortable with are not enough for them.
 
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