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Pure BEV Dogma

Discussion in 'Electric Vehicles' started by bonnie, Feb 26, 2012.

  1. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    I am >>so<< tired of extended range cars grabbing the electric moniker. Tired of it! There should be hybrids, electrics, and .. that. EVERs? (electric vehicle extended range) Something to distinguish would be nice. They're taking the EV goodwill and adding gas to it.

    -snit over-
     
  2. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #2 TEG, Feb 26, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2012
    +1. Agree. ...How do we react to DPeilow's plans to get an Ampera?
     
  3. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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  4. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    Banishment?
     
  5. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    He's family, we make allowances :wink:
     
  6. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #6 TEG, Feb 26, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2012
    I think Tesla is absolutely doing the right thing sticking with 100% electric battery only. If nothing else, they don't have to have any staff experts on all those ICE things like emissions systems, fuel injection, etc. Also, they are assured of all the ZEV only perks like carpool access, ZEV credits, rebates, etc.
     
  7. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    I'm fine as long as it does not result in someone making an argument against BEVs using its all-electric-range as an example (I've seen the Volt's ~35mi AER being used frequently as an argument against electric cars).

    But it does mislead me (as in excitement when hearing an "electric" sports car / super car being offered, and then "bleh" when finding out it has an engine in it).
     
  8. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Since that happens repeatedly and often, you probably aren't actually fine with it most of the time :wink:
     
  9. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    hybrids, electrics and
    I suggest calling them rangers...

    (sorry Tesla)
     
  10. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Interesting choice of thread title, shouldn't it be "Proper use of terminology"?

    http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title10-vol3/xml/CFR-2011-title10-vol3-part474.xml
     
  11. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    Here's the reality check...

    I would like to buy an EV at around £35-£40k which has rapid charge and ~150 miles real range. (The LEAF costs £25k in the UK.) I don't think doubling the LEAF battery size for £10k is out of the question, but no-one is talking about it.

    So do I wait another 4 years for Bluestar and continue using the gasser?

    No. I can do 95% of my mileage (by my calculations) on electric power now and still head off on longer trips at the drop of a hat (which I need to do). That's why I'm getting the Ampera.

    I'm fed up with people trying to lump it in with the Prius. It drives nothing like the Prius. It's going to run on electricity all week.

    I could take the ICE out of the Ampera and I'd have a 50 mile EV that still could do 100 mph and 0-60 in 9 seconds. If I did the same with a PiP, it wouldn't reach motorway speed and accelerate from 0-60 in ~30 seconds. The PiP couldn't drive the 30 motorway miles to work without the ICE coming on. That is to all intents and purposes why the Ampera is an EV with a backup generator and the PiP is a hybrid.

    As for the "dragging around an ICE" crowd - a modern 1.4 litre engine weighs 100kg. Calculate how much the 85 kWh battery weighs over a 40 kWh...

    Even if I did have the garage space for a second ICE car for those trips, that's a whole ICE car that sits around waiting for under 5% of my miles. That's about 30,000 miles worth of emissions just to make the thing - not green.

    So as I've said before, yes I changed my position on this (about a year ago) but it was when I suspected that the base Model S wouldn't meet my needs (and be a real stretch, which I would only do if it did meet my needs).

    The "must be pure EV" dogma holds back electrification as much as the right wing gibberish IMHO.


    That said, if someone comes out with the EV I described above then the Ampera will be for sale.
     
  12. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    I have no issue with anyone purchasing what fits their needs. But I'd just like the vehicle classification to accurately reflect what type of vehicle it is. Why should PEV and EVs with an ICE range extender be called the same thing? It's confusing. That was my snit. I understand that a LOT more electric miles will be driven this way (and have said that to a journalist, when asked how I felt). But the name should be different.
     
  13. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    #13 JRP3, Feb 27, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2012
    Exactly. PHEV's are a good choice for many people, but they are simply not EV's, any more than they are ICE's. Contrary to what David states you cannot pull the ICE out of the Volt/Ampera since the vehicle would not function. You probably could do so with the Karma since it's a series hybrid with the ICE being only a generator, never driving the wheels directly, unlike the Volt/Ampera.
    I think David, and others, are taking our criticism of improper use of terminology as a personal attack on their vehicle choice. That is simply not the case, at least on my part.
     
  14. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    Tell me how the vehicle will not function?
     
  15. NigelM

    NigelM Recovering Member

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    From a marketing perspective it's even worse. Defining a car as "range extended" or similar terminology infers that it's better than something which doesn't have a range extender. I overheard a Fisker sales person telling a prospect that the Karma was an "electric car that you can drive as far as you want without stopping..." :eek: Oh, how I was dying to jump on that one!

    BTW, I don't criticize anyone who buys hybrids and the like as they're all doing their bit. The only criticism I have is for people who insist on buying gas-guzzlers for illogical reasons (take a look at the line of giant SUV's waiting in the car park at school pick-up time, not a single one of them has ever seen mud).
     
  16. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Does it not count on the ICE regardless of battery SOC in certain cases, such as cold weather? Not to mention it would probably throw a major fault code, "Where is the ICE?"
     
  17. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    It doesn't count on the ICE. It will use it if available and decides it would be better than using electric heating, for example, but it will still operate if there is 0 gas in the tank.

    You could theoretically take the ICE out, reprogram the computer to not give fault codes and it would behave like a full-speed BEV. You can't do that with the PiP.
     
  18. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    OK, fair enough, so if you took out the ICE and associated systems you would have an EV. Until that happens, you don't, you have a hybrid. It is different than the Prius PHEV, but it is also quite obviously different than an EV.
     
  19. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    I've been at the Toronto auto show for over a week, and I've discovered that I'm "meh" about almost all the cars here - they have ICEs. Not interesting to me now.

    The only plug-in hybrid that I can get excited about is the Via truck. That looks like a slam-dunk for fleet use. So plug-in hybrids definitely have a useful niche. Just don't try to imply they're pure EV. GM's marketing in particular is trying to have it both ways, and it's just confusing people.
     
  20. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    For someone that only has one car and needs more range, I think the Volt is fine especially if a large majority of their daily driving falls within the Volt's electric range. If someone drives more than 30 miles in a day on average, you could argue for something more efficient like the Prius depending on how much over 30 miles they drive.
     

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