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Pure BEV Dogma

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The Volt is not just a PHEV, like a PIP. It is better than that.
Depends on your criteria. If you drive longer distances and want the most efficiency, the PiP is better. The differences between the PiP and Volt are like the differences between a car with a 4cyl and a 6cyl in a way, but they don't need different descriptives in labeling. The details will be described in finer detail during shopping and purchase.
It is not twice as complex as an EV either. The powertrain is, but modern automobiles have so much more. Like over 100 electric motors in an S-class, or TEN airbags in a Chevy Cruze. Not to mention navigation, telematics, suspension, brakes, entertainment systems, lighting, HVAC, ad nausium. What is the big deal about only ONE extra powertrain! :)

GSP

I was talking about the powertrain, which is the most prone to wear, and actually more complex in an ICE than EV simply by number of moving parts. So a hybrid is more than twice as complex than an EV :wink:
 
I was talking about the powertrain, which is the most prone to wear, and actually more complex in an ICE than EV simply by number of moving parts. So a hybrid is more than twice as complex than an EV :wink:

Right, but most people buy and maintain complete automobiles! :)

GSP
 
Depends on your criteria. If you drive longer distances and want the most efficiency, the PiP is better. The differences between the PiP and Volt are like the differences between a car with a 4cyl and a 6cyl in a way, but they don't need different descriptives in labeling. The details will be described in finer detail during shopping and purchase.


I was talking about the powertrain, which is the most prone to wear, and actually more complex in an ICE than EV simply by number of moving parts. So a hybrid is more than twice as complex than an EV :wink:



That's BS.

You might think you'll burn no gas on local errands with the Toyota, but you will. Its ICE will be on most of the time to give you adequate power, causing wear and tear. It just uses plug power to give an MPG boost to the ICE, unless you drive like a granny.

On the other hand, a Volt with 100,000 miles might only have 10,000 miles on the ICE.

And as I've said umpteen times, various people have shown the cross-over point where Prius beats Volt is above 90 miles. So if you live 90 miles from the shops, your kids' school or work, buy the Prius.
 
That's BS.

You might think you'll burn no gas on local errands with the Toyota, but you will. Its ICE will be on most of the time to give you adequate power, causing wear and tear. It just uses plug power to give an MPG boost to the ICE, unless you drive like a granny.
People who buy a PiP are obviously interested in efficiency, they probably drive in a similar manner, they aren't looking for a performance vehicle. As for the crossover point with the PiP and the Volt, wasn't that with the HEV, not the PHEV version?
 
People who buy a PiP are obviously interested in efficiency, they probably drive in a similar manner, they aren't looking for a performance vehicle. As for the crossover point with the PiP and the Volt, wasn't that with the HEV, not the PHEV version?

According to reviews, long as you maintain less than 3/4 throttle, the ICE never turns on in the PiP. I don't see how that is a very big challenge to do. The only time where you might be required to do full throttle is in the highway on ramp and at that point the ICE will have to be on anyways (unless you are in a 55mph zone).

Toyota can simply add another mode in the next version so that it doesn't require the user to limit the throttle by themselves, while still having the ICE off.

I also wanted to add that the Prius has an HSI bar that makes it very easy to tell how much throttle you have applied.
 
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Mandatory joke based on thread title:
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Not banned, just properly labeled. I still drive an ICE at times since my Fiero is no good in the woods, snow, or for hauling stuff. I've thought about ways to turn the ICE into a plug in hybrid. If I do so, no matter what the end result, I won't call it an EV, or an EREV, or REEV. When EV's eventually have the same range as a typical ICE or hybrid, can you still call the Volt/Ampera "range extended"? The Model S already has more range than some gas vehicles I've owned.
 
Good discussion. As usual I agree with Doug and TEG, but maybe have a little to add.

I think David made a good choice for his needs.

The “hybrid garage” approach appeals more to me. I like the idea of an affordable, highway capable, pure EV commuter. It wouldn’t be too expensive for most commuters like some other cars I could mention. It wouldn’t need a huge infrastructure. It wouldn’t need to replace most gasoline commuter cars immediately. If it replaced ten per cent it would be a fabulous leap forward.

The big car companies, notably Honda, with the exception of Nissan, seem to be trying hard to create green PR while dragging their feet powerfully. One way might be overpricing their cars, to limit demand and at least get paid well if they’re forced to produce them. For example, the Fit EV uses the already developed Fit platform and the already developed Clarity drivetrain, so it shouldn’t be so much more expensive than the gasoline version.

Perhaps they don’t want to compete with their own gasoline car core business. Perhaps they’re concerned about creating severe CARB mandate problems again. Once bitten, twice shy. Tesla has the advantage of not having that concern, so it seems destined eventually for an important role.

The Volt drivetrain design is theoretically much more efficient than a simple gasoline motor plus generator approach. That’s not even controversial among engineers. And reports are that the Karma gets around 20 mpg on gasoline, whereas the Volt gets around mid to high thirties.

Considering the nomenclature issue, I share the desire for accuracy, but maybe some purists are driven more by elitism, snobbishness, the desire to try to boss people around, etc. I’m not going to lose any sleep over it.

With respect to confusing the public, I’ll offer again a comment by Chelsea Sexton:

“…the bottom line is, the people who are looking at plug-in hybrids generally are not going to buy electric cars.”
“Usually, if someone’s really only gonna get a plug-in hybrid, it’s because, whether right or wrong or otherwise, they think an EV won’t work for them. And so all the purists that are sitting there trashing all the plug-in hybrids are just going to convince those new potential plug-in hybrid people that plug-in hybrids are not good enough and they’re going to send them to buy another gas car. That’s how it’s gonna work. The plug-in hybrid people are never gonna talk the EV folks out of buying an EV, but the EV people will talk the plug-in hybrid people out of a plug-in hybrid.”

Concerning the apprehension over the negative image of hybrids tainting EVs, I’m guessing that most people think of EV drivers as eccentrics who are spending way too much money on impractical cars which require great expertise to nurse along. They see their neighbors and other ordinary people happily driving Priuses in significant numbers, and are probably vaguely aware that they’re very reliable and fuel-efficient. They’re likely to have a much more positive image of hybrids, and I’m guessing that would tend to create interest in and greater acceptance of EVs.

Disclaimer: I have of course driven them but have never owned any Toyota, and have never known anyone in the new car business.

With respect to the big picture of climate change, strategic concerns, damage to the economy, and severe public health problems, doesn’t it sometimes seem odd to see people looking down their noses at a car that is attractively priced, sells in the millions, and has already saved billions of gallons of gasoline from being burned up and polluting the atmosphere?
 
Do you have any examples of people looking down on a particular technology? If so, do you really think the general public who you feel see EV drivers as impractical eccentrics will be greatly influenced by those same eccentrics? I see much greater influence by media outlets describing the Volt as an overpriced 35 mile EV that might run out of charge in a tunnel after only 20 miles or burst into flames in an accident.