Pure BEV Dogma

[Jeff N]

EREV says nothing about the performance either. It requires further explanation. The definition of PHEV-X would require the X to refer to full highway performance EV rate range. ER could just meant an EV that drives really far.

GM's EREV definition requires that the car be a "Full Performance Battery Electric Vehicle" as defined by a CARB document when the car operates in its EV mode. That definition basically distinguishes a FPBEV from a Neighborhood Electric Vehicle like a golf cart etc. that cannot be driven on the highway.

Of course, customers will want to know more about the EV performance but that's true when comparing two BEVs like a Nissan LEAF versus a Tesla Model S70.

 

[scaesare]

Right. The Volt is a PHEV, but it doesn't stop there. It has an inherently different design that gives it capabilities that vehicles like the PiP don't have. The Prius is not physically capable of operating the way a Volt does.

Do cars like the Volt need their own SAE classification? Probably not, but there's still nothing wrong with calling them EREVs, REEVs or EVERs, since that describes what they are, not just how they're used.

To characterize the vehicle as an "EV" when only 10% of it's full capability range is supplied by electricity as a fuel, and the remaining 90% of it's range is supplied by gasoline as a fuel is dubious.

Why isn't "Battery Assisted Gasoline Vehicle" far more accurate?

 

[dsm363]

GM's EREV definition requires that the car be a "Full Performance Battery Electric Vehicle" as defined by a CARB document when the car operates in its EV mode. That definition basically distinguishes a FPBEV from a Neighborhood Electric Vehicle like a golf cart etc. that cannot be driven on the highway.

Of course, customers will want to know more about the EV performance but that's true when comparing two BEVs like a Nissan LEAF versus a Tesla Model S70.

If the SAE adopts it then that's perfect. Until then it's a marketing term and not a great one at that. PHEV-53 for the new Volt would tell me exactly how many miles of EV range it had. I could compare it to the old Volt and see it had slightly more range in EV mode. Extended Range doesn't do that.

 

[Drucifer]

To characterize the vehicle as an "EV" when only 10% of it's fill capability range is supplied by electricity as a fuel, and the remaining 90% of it's range is supplied by gasoline as a fuel is dubious.

Why isn't "Battery Assisted Gasoline Vehicle" far more accurate?

Because it is a "Gasoline Assisted Battery Vehicle"

 

[JRP3]

If the SAE adopts it then that's perfect. Until then it's a marketing term and not a great one at that. PHEV-53 for the new Volt would tell me exactly how many miles of EV range it had. I could compare it to the old Volt and see it had slightly more range in EV mode. Extended Range doesn't do that.

I agree, though I'd take it further and make it PHV-53. Plugin hybrid describes the ICE/electric nature and 53 describes how many miles you can expect from the battery charge. Any other details as to how exactly it operates don't need to be included in the acronym.

 

[scaesare]

Because it is a "Gasoline Assisted Battery Vehicle"

While "because!" may seem to be a cogent argument to some, ignoring the data presented in an answer to "Why" doesn't really further objective dialog.

 

[Jeff N]

I agree, though I'd take it further and make it PHV-53. Plugin hybrid describes the ICE/electric nature and 53 describes how many miles you can expect from the battery charge. Any other details as to how exactly it operates don't need to be included in the acronym.

Why must this additional information be kept from customers prying eyes?

 

[Drucifer]

While "because!" may seem to be a cogent argument to some, ignoring the data presented in an answer to "Why" doesn't really further objective dialog.

I have already presented extensive data in previous posts. Please read back through my posts over the last 24 hours.

 

[JRP3]

Why must this additional information be kept from customers prying eyes?

Because for one, EREV tells the public less than what I described, and because ICE's seemed to do quite fine without minuscule details in the acronym. Every detail of ICE operation, # of cylinders, type of transmission, method of fuel metering, etc., don't get glommed onto ICE. That's found by looking into the specifications, which everyone does to some degree. I think they are capable of doing the same with a PHV.

 

[scaesare]

I have already presented extensive data in previous posts. Please read back through my posts over the last 24 hours.

None of which addresses the question posed.

 

[rolosrevenge]

I am immensely pleased that we've suddenly added another 20 pages to this without adding anything new. All of these points have long been made. Drucifer, you should have just gone back and read the previous 100 pages before posting. You would have found that everything you've said has been said, parsed, rebutted, refused to be accepted, etc. I'll mention again, that in IEEE Journal articles, the term EREV is non-existent. They use either PEV for plug-in vehicles if they don't care what type they are, use PHEV for all vehicles that have more than one power source, irrespective of how often one may or may not be used, and EV for purely electric vehicles. Sometimes they use BEV to differentiate from PHEV in the same paper. This is generally done when doing daily driving studies. The amount of charging in a single day depends very much on the size of the battery and whether or not there is gasoline to back it up. So in power grid studies in IEEE, if it has a gas tank and can plug in, it's a PHEV.

 

[Takumi]

Hybrids: Prius vs. Volt

Customer: What's the difference?
Me: Volt uses up battery before engaging the ICE.

ICE: Cadillac ATS 2.5L vs. Cadillac ATS 2.0L vs. Cadillac ATS 3.6

Customer: What's the difference?
Me: 2.5L has a V4, 2.0L has an EcoBoost, 3.6 is a V6
Customer: But isn't EcoBoost Ford?
Me: Yes, but it's the same as the Ford - DI and turbo.

VTEC just kicked in yo! Maybe replace that with EREV just kicked in yo!

EREV is a marketing term
EcoBoost is a marketing term
VTEC is a marketing term

 

[Drucifer]

I am immensely pleased that we've suddenly added another 20 pages to this without adding anything new. All of these points have long been made. Drucifer, you should have just gone back and read the previous 100 pages before posting. You would have found that everything you've said has been said, parsed, rebutted, refused to be accepted, etc. I'll mention again, that in IEEE Journal articles, the term EREV is non-existent. They use either PEV for plug-in vehicles if they don't care what type they are, use PHEV for all vehicles that have more than one power source, irrespective of how often one may or may not be used, and EV for purely electric vehicles. Sometimes they use BEV to differentiate from PHEV in the same paper. This is generally done when doing daily driving studies. The amount of charging in a single day depends very much on the size of the battery and whether or not there is gasoline to back it up. So in power grid studies in IEEE, if it has a gas tank and can plug in, it's a PHEV.

You are probably right. I kind of got slammed into this post when a bunch of stuff got Mod-Moved from GM-Volt. It really wasn't my intention to hang out on this thread so much.

No wonder GM marketing is a "fumbling" on the Volt. If it is challenging to explain the car here amongst Tesla folks, how will the general public ever understand it?!?

Good Day

 

[dsm363]

Why must this additional information be kept from customers prying eyes?

It wouldn't. And how does EREV convey more info that PHEV-53?

 

[jdbob]

The Volt is a very good plugin-hybrid design. However, calling it (correctly) a plugin-hybrid puts it into the same category as PiP / Ford Fusion etc., a whole fleet of cars that are really just plain ICE-based hybrids with a Plug added mostly for marketing purposes: getting HOV lane stickers, posturing as more green than they really are, i.e. they are bad plugin designs where the plug is really just a facade.

This is the reason why GM and Volt drivers insist on differentiating the Volt as a different category than those other plugin hybrids, and I agree with them. The proper thing would be to call those other cars (PiP and ilk) just plain hybrids, but that does not work because their marketdroids will insist on pointing out that it has a plug - even if its near-useless.

Wow, that's some serious hostility towards Toyota and Ford. The PIP, Energis, and Volt are all PHEVs with varying amount of all electric capabilities. I'm sure there is somebody somewhere that actually uses a PIP in electric only mode a large part of the time. Of course, the HOV sticker was a big thing for the PIP.

97% of my trips are in the range of 9-10 miles, the rest are in the order of hundreds of miles, up to about 2000. A C-Max Energi does just fine for the 97% in all electric mode, a Volt would be overkill for those. And for the long trips, the extra 20 miles (for a pre-2016 Volt) wouldn't have made much difference. In return I get a ride with more space, and at the time is was about $6K less expensive.

I'm glad Chevy is improving the Volt, now if Ford would do something, but I don't expect anything until the 2018 model year.

 

[jerry33]

The Volt is a fine car to allow someone to "get over the fear of large batteries" as is the Prius. My problem with it is that GM sells it as if it were an EV. The following table should be all the choices required:

Electric Motor	ICE	Description
Yes	Yes	HEV, If it can be plugged in PHEV
Yes	No	BEV
No	Yes	ICE
No	No	Off topic: horse or rocket ship

 

[brianman]

People seem to conflate separate issues it seems.

The issue is that cars have an architecture(i.e. how they are designed and what they can do), for their entire envelope of capability. They subsequently have modes that the car may operate in under certain parameters.

I like this approach.

Perhaps a bad example but let's try it...

A. Laptop with SSD.
This is a "single storage technology" device. It's always in "pure solid state" mode. When the SSD is turned off, it's also in "pure RAM" mode.

B. Laptop with HDD.
This is a "hybrid storage technology" device: solid state and mechanical. When the HDD is turned off, it's in "pure solid state" mode and "pure RAM" mode.

C. Laptop with SSD and HDD.
This is a "hybrid storage technology" device: solid state and mechanical. When the HDD is turned off, it's in "pure solid state" mode. When the SSD is also turned off, it's also in "pure RAM" mode.

All three of these laptops have "multiple storage units" -- RAM+HDD, RAM+SSD, RAM+SSD+HDD respectively.

Only A is a "single storage technology" device, whether or not any of the drives are active; heck it doesn't even matter if the laptop itself is turned on or not.


* "Asterisk of simplicity": I'm assuming in the above that the chips inside the SSD are the same DIMM/RIMM/SIMM flavor that are being used for RAM, just in an SSD packaging.

 

[Drucifer]

There is the same challenge with Motorcycles.

The Honda ST1300 is a sport touring bike, size wise almost as big as the full touring dresser Goldwing

The Honda VFR is a sport touring bike, size size similar to a sport bike, but with a slightly longer swing arm and luggage.

They are both "sport touring bikes", but they are very different implementations of the idea coming at it from opposite directions. I know a lot of people who would be interested in one that would have little interest in the other.

 

[BillC]

You should have to call the Volt a hybrid vehicle because that's what it is. It has two potential power sources does it not?

Once owned a Volt. It's not a hybrid because the onboard ICE charges the battery just enough to keep the car going. Since power to the wheels is only from battery, the Volt qualifies for the $7,500 federal rebate. If power to wheels comes from either battery or an ICE (like a hybrid) the car does not qualify for rebate.

 

[jdbob]

Once owned a Volt. It's not a hybrid because the onboard ICE charges the battery just enough to keep the car going. Since power to the wheels is only from battery, the Volt qualifies for the $7,500 federal rebate. If power to wheels comes from either battery or an ICE (like a hybrid) the car does not qualify for rebate.

Completely wrong. The rebate is based on the kWh of the battery for any plug-in battery, doesn't matter if it has a ICE or not. Volt is large enough for $7500, Energi's get around $4000 because of the smaller battery.