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Pure BEV Dogma

scottf200

Active Member
Feb 3, 2013
3,956
3,621
Chicagoland ModelX S603
What is really telling is that only some Volt owners insist on pretending they are driving an EV, even as their ICE starts up during their drives. My purpose is to use accurate terminology, and not indulge in fantasy. My quote calling the Volt an internal combustion car came from an article which I did not write. Take it up with them.
You responded so fast you must be subscribed to this thread.

Yes, my ICE came on AFTER my battery was depleted in my long doctors visit example. In a LEAF as example, when its battery is depleted on a drive you are stalled along the road. Of course the LEAF electrically driven miles are "pure" and the Volt electrically driven miles are not worthy. Got it.
 

JohnSnowNW

Active Member
Feb 13, 2015
2,644
2,769
Minnesota
Of course the LEAF electrically driven miles are "pure" and the Volt electrically driven miles are not worthy. Got it.

Honestly, I've had a problem with the EREV designation since GM started using it. The Volt is a hybrid, that has the best AER in its class...well other than the i3 Rex.

Anyway, I'm buying a '17 Volt as soon as I can configure one, but it's a hybrid. I'm not ascribing a negative connotation at all, but I feel it's necessary to differentiate technologies.

The AER is just as pure as any BEV, I agree.
 

Drucifer

Active Member
Nov 30, 2014
1,115
262
Charlotte, NC
You responded so fast you must be subscribed to this thread.

Yes, my ICE came on AFTER my battery was depleted in my long doctors visit example. In a LEAF as example, when its battery is depleted on a drive you are stalled along the road. Of course the LEAF electrically driven miles are "pure" and the Volt electrically driven miles are not worthy. Got it.

But as a Leaf owner also, when the Leaf hits and SOC of zero and a diesel tow truck comes to haul it to a charging station, is it now a diesel vehicle? ;)
 

JRP3

Hyperactive Member
Aug 20, 2007
20,295
46,798
Central New York
Of course the LEAF electrically driven miles are "pure" and the Volt electrically driven miles are not worthy. Got it.

Never said nor implied such. That's simply an odd interpretation by you, clearly colored by your own irrational bias. When your argument depends on absurdity it's obviously not valid. My point is, has always been, and will always remain, that trying to classify a vehicle as something which it is not makes no logical sense at all.

- - - Updated - - -

But as a Leaf owner also, when the Leaf hits and SOC of zero and a diesel tow truck comes to haul it to a charging station, is it now a diesel vehicle? ;)


Proving my point.
 

gregincal

Active Member
Oct 26, 2012
3,770
2,311
Santa Cruz, CA
The Volt is a plug in hybrid. It's a great plugin hybrid, what they should all be like instead of the crap that the rest of them are. Why not celebrate that fact? Even the upcoming who know how expensive plugin hybrid version of the BMW 3 series reportedly will have an electric motor way less powerful than the Volt's.

However, it also ranks highly in my opinion amongst plugin cars in general. I think it has better power, handling and styling than many other plug in vehicles that don't happen to have an ICE. It didn't quite have the electric range I needed, or I probably would have bought one not caring that it had an ICE.
 
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qwk

P130DL
Dec 19, 2008
3,024
766
There you go using sound logic. I used one of our Volts yesterday to run a friend to a doctors visit quite a ways away. ICE only started up on the way back after the battery was fully depleted. Charged when I got home and then went out later that day running only on battery for 25+ miles (no ICE ever).

JRP3 only purpose is to antagonize. He doesn't use logic. He doesn't even own a Tesla but constantly post here ... that is telling.
This post is one giant contradiction. According to your logic, the Volt is an EV, yet you used gas after you depleted the battery? Lol. JRP3 is right, and uses pretty sound logic. EV's don't use gas. Also him not owning a Tesla is a silly comment. That's like comparing someones post count to their intelligence....
 

gregincal

Active Member
Oct 26, 2012
3,770
2,311
Santa Cruz, CA
In fact I don't treat them the same, I simply don't think the details of their design and construction put them in drastically different categories. They are both plugin hybrids with varying degrees of electric drive capability. A 4 cyl ICE with a manual transmission and an 8 cyl ICE with an automatic are different by design, construction, and performance but they don't get put into different categories, they are both still ICE's.



Apparently.

Actually I would say that all plugin cars share many characteristics and can be compared in terms of battery and electric motor design. I always look first at how effective the electric motor drivetrain is. Whether or not it happens to have an ICE is purely a secondary characteristic. It's just that in most PHEVs the electric drivetrain is laughable. The category that sales are tracked by is generally plugin cars.
 

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
10,617
7,794
Maine
In fact I don't treat them the same, I simply don't think the details of their design and construction put them in drastically different categories. They are both plugin hybrids with varying degrees of electric drive capability. A 4 cyl ICE with a manual transmission and an 8 cyl ICE with an automatic are different by design, construction, and performance but they don't get put into different categories, they are both still ICE's.

So you just buy cars. You don't look for a sedan, hatchback, SUV, CUV, pick-up, sports car, muscle car, minivan, small van, roadster, convertible, cabriolet, minicompact, subcompact or mid-size?

You make no distinction for whether the engine will run every time you hit the highway? Or every time you need significant acceleration? Or every time you use cabin heat? You make no distinctive between a car that owners drive 30% electric, which was created by putting a larger battery in an existing hybrid, and one that average owners drive over 70% electric and is EV-limited only by range and very low temperature because the company designed it from the start to to have sufficient electric power for all speeds, electric heating capability for most temperatures and sufficient range for a large percentage of driving? No distinction at all? I can tell you from relative popularity of vehicles (near pariah v busy) at our NDEW event that other people interested in electric cars certainly do.
 

gregincal

Active Member
Oct 26, 2012
3,770
2,311
Santa Cruz, CA
So you just buy cars. You don't look for a sedan, hatchback, SUV, CUV, pick-up, sports car, muscle car, minivan, small van, roadster, convertible, cabriolet, minicompact, subcompact or mid-size?

You make no distinction for whether the engine will run every time you hit the highway? Or every time you need significant acceleration? Or every time you use cabin heat? You make no distinctive between a car that owners drive 30% electric, which was created by putting a larger battery in an existing hybrid, and one that average owners drive over 70% electric and is EV-limited only by range and very low temperature because the company designed it from the start to to have sufficient electric power for all speeds, electric heating capability for most temperatures and sufficient range for a large percentage of driving? No distinction at all? I can tell you from relative popularity of vehicles (near pariah v busy) at our NDEW event that other people interested in electric cars certainly do.

Trying to be a middle ground here, I'll point out that you can make a distinction without coming up with a new term. Obviously there is an enormous difference between car designed from scratch for electric propulsion and a compliance conversion, but despite that the Ford Focus EV and the Tesla Model S are sadly both called BEVs. It doesn't stop people from realizing one is vastly superior to the other. Drawing sharp lines is always tricky. I think that's true of people trying to draw a sharp line to separate pure BEVs from hybrids (where the i3 clearly muddies the waters, saying it is two totally different cars depending on a option is like saying an automatic or manual transmission makes a car completely different), but equally true of people trying to draw a sharp line to separate the Volt from other PHEVs. Just evaluate each car for what it is, and how good a job it does meeting peoples needs while getting away from gasoline. Plugin cars have huge variations, but generally in a fairly smooth continuum.
 

Norseman

Member
Jun 3, 2015
75
0
Fort Lauderdale
. What is really telling is that only some Volt owners insist on pretending they are driving an EV, even as their ICE starts up during their drives.

Can't speak for other Volt owners but my ICE generator has not started in 6 months of daily driving.
Been driving strictly electric and I don't care what other people call it, it is still an electric vehicle with a back-up
geenrator. Hopefully they rip the generator and fuel system out in a future model and stick more battery cells in the car instead.
It would be a useful option with twice the electric range.
 

scaesare

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2013
8,424
14,178
NoVA
And you insist on treating the Volt the same as the Plug-in Prius, because it has an engine, despite the very different approaches to the vehicle design and engineering.

There are broad categories of vehicles, yet significantly design different goals, and thus implementation differences within them.

Just because a Hyundai and Jaguar may both have a car in the "sedan" category, doesn't mean you are "treating it the same".

"Plug-in Hybrid" is a broad category. Volt and Prius fit the description, despite differences. "BEV" is a broad category, and the Ford Focus Electric fits in the category every bit as much as my Model S, yet I don't take offense and feel that somebody is "treating them the same", despite obvious major differences between them.

:confused:
 
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JRP3

Hyperactive Member
Aug 20, 2007
20,295
46,798
Central New York
So you just buy cars. You don't look for a sedan, hatchback, SUV, CUV, pick-up, sports car, muscle car, minivan, small van, roadster, convertible, cabriolet, minicompact, subcompact or mid-size?

You make no distinction for whether the engine will run every time you hit the highway? Or every time you need significant acceleration? Or every time you use cabin heat? You make no distinctive between a car that owners drive 30% electric, which was created by putting a larger battery in an existing hybrid, and one that average owners drive over 70% electric and is EV-limited only by range and very low temperature because the company designed it from the start to to have sufficient electric power for all speeds, electric heating capability for most temperatures and sufficient range for a large percentage of driving? No distinction at all? I can tell you from relative popularity of vehicles (near pariah v busy) at our NDEW event that other people interested in electric cars certainly do.

In fact in my example you quoted I acknowledge the different design, construction, and performance characteristics between different types of ICE's, but I don't reclassify them as anything other than ICE's. A low powered 4 cyl ICE obviously has quite different operating characteristics than a high powered V8 ICE. The point is you can take into account the differences between vehicles within a class without having to make up a new class. The Volt and PiP have some different operating characteristics but both are plugin hybrids.
 

gregincal

Active Member
Oct 26, 2012
3,770
2,311
Santa Cruz, CA
In fact in my example you quoted I acknowledge the different design, construction, and performance characteristics between different types of ICE's, but I don't reclassify them as anything other than ICE's. A low powered 4 cyl ICE obviously has quite different operating characteristics than a high powered V8 ICE. The point is you can take into account the differences between vehicles within a class without having to make up a new class. The Volt and PiP have some different operating characteristics but both are plugin hybrids.

And the Volt, PiP, Leaf and Model S are all plugin vehicles, which have the unique characteristic of being able to be powered by alternative energy sources such as solar or wind power, which clearly distinguishes them from gasoline only powered vehicles such as the Prius or the Cadillac Escalade or any other gas powered vehicle. That as far as I am concerned is by far the most important categorization. The PiP is just a really, really bad example of this class of vehicle, since it can't really be driven in any meaningful fashion on electricity.

(I assumed this would go to the dogma thread, but I can't resist since I totally disagree with JRP3 that the term "hybrid" by itself is a useful category of car instead of a technical detail like automatic transmission.)
 

green1

Active Member
Mar 25, 2014
4,548
1,123
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
. The PiP is just a really, really bad example of this class of vehicle, since it can't really be driven in any meaningful fashion on electricity.
Luckily, there's actually a category for cars like that, it's called Plugin Hybrid Electric Vehicle, or PHEV. It includes such things as the PiP, Volt, i3 Rex, and anything else that has multiple different power sources including a plug in. It does not include the Leaf or Model S. We don't need to invent these categories on the fly, or pretend one vehicle or another is in a different one, there are actual definitions for these things.
why you'd lump the PiP and the Model S in the same category, when they are by definition in different categories confuses people.
 

gregincal

Active Member
Oct 26, 2012
3,770
2,311
Santa Cruz, CA
Luckily, there's actually a category for cars like that, it's called Plugin Hybrid Electric Vehicle, or PHEV. It includes such things as the PiP, Volt, i3 Rex, and anything else that has multiple different power sources including a plug in.

The class of vehicle is called a plugin vehicle, and includes the Model S as well. I think the Volt has a better electric powertrain than some other cars that don't include an ICE.
 

green1

Active Member
Mar 25, 2014
4,548
1,123
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
The class of vehicle is called a plugin vehicle, and includes the Model S as well.
By that logic we might as well call it an ICE because it has an internal combustion engine, that class includes both the Volt and the Suburban.

The proper class is PHEV because it has both the plugin, and a gass tank, ignoring either one is patently absurd.

If I hold my left arm behind my back can I be in the amputee class because I don't use that arm?
 

gregincal

Active Member
Oct 26, 2012
3,770
2,311
Santa Cruz, CA
By that logic we might as well call it an ICE because it has an internal combustion engine, that class includes both the Volt and the Suburban.

The proper class is PHEV because it has both the plugin, and a gass tank, ignoring either one is patently absurd.

If I hold my left arm behind my back can I be in the amputee class because I don't use that arm?

No, I explained why the class is important. The point is to be able to fuel vehicles by alternative energy sources. That is what drives the definition of the class and it is not some arbitrary distinction like whether a 99% identical i3 has a motorcycle engine in the back or not that may or may not be used. As Elon Musk said, a planet driving 100% Priuses is a planet still 100% addicted to oil. That is not true for any plugin vehicle.
 

Drucifer

Active Member
Nov 30, 2014
1,115
262
Charlotte, NC
While PHEV is a good generic term overall, the distinction is:

A primarily EV with range extender: (BMW i3 REX, Chevy Volt, Cadillac ELR) that can run with no gas.

A primarily ICE vehicle with plug-in electric "support" than cannot achieve full performance without the ICE running: (Fusion Energi, PIP, Volvo XC90 T8, Panamera Plug-In, etc.)

For many people that distinction isn't maybe important to them, but to me it is huge.
 

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