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Pure BEV Dogma

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No, I explained why the class is important. The point is to be able to fuel vehicles by alternative energy sources. That is what drives the definition of the class and it is not some arbitrary distinction like whether a 99% identical i3 has a motorcycle engine in the back or not that may or may not be used. As Elon Musk said, a planet driving 100% Priuses is a planet still 100% addicted to oil. That is not true for any plugin vehicle.
But there's no guarantee that those plug in vehicles WILL be powered by electricity, they can just as easily power 100% based on oil.

Regardless though, that is not at all how the classes are defined, they are defined by what the vehicle IS, not by what one user or another does with it. "Plugin" is a useless term because it could be a ICE vehicle with a battery that won't make it to the end of the driveway without the motor firing up, or a BEV that can drive across the state, it tells you nothing. That's why the official class of "plugin" doesn't exist, it's why they call these things by what they actually are, "BEV" or "PHEV"

The difference is important, because every time people buy one of these, it validates the decision to pair tiny batteries with an ICE instead of big batteries without one. It perpetuates the use of oil where it's not needed.
 
People can make up whatever terms they like, it doesn't make it a real technical (or useful) class.

GM made up the term "EREV" to hide the fact they weren't making a pure EV, many people have made up all sorts of terms.

A PHEV is still a different class than an EV. If you insist that they're identical, I challenge you to explain why a PHEV can't equally be called an ICE.
 
The difference is important, because every time people buy one of these, it validates the decision to pair tiny batteries with an ICE instead of big batteries without one. It perpetuates the use of oil where it's not needed.

The i3 Rex has more batteries than the Chevy Spark. I don't care about arbitrary distinctions, I care about how well a vehicle drives on electricity. Since I believe the electric drivetrain is superior to a gasoline drivetrain the rest will take care of itself.
 
No, I explained why the class is important. The point is to be able to fuel vehicles by alternative energy sources. That is what drives the definition of the class and it is not some arbitrary distinction like whether a 99% identical i3 has a motorcycle engine in the back or not that may or may not be used. As Elon Musk said, a planet driving 100% Priuses is a planet still 100% addicted to oil. That is not true for any plugin vehicle.

Do you think Elon Musk flies an EV jet?

It is not necessary to be 100% fossil fuel free. Most EV's aren't fossil fuel free either, as many powerplants have a carbon footprint.

The goal is to first stop the upward trend (the US peak gasoline consumption was in 2005), then to ramp it down.

U.S. Total Gasoline Retail Sales by Refiners (Thousand Gallons per Day)

Many EV owners have ICE vehicles also in the family, or rent ICE vehicles, or travel by jet, ship, or train.

But the goods you buy also require fossil fuel use, as does your food.

Notice that gasoline consumption dropped before there were many EV choices on the market.

Dual Mode EV's (EREV, whatever) are part of the solution, not part of the problem, as apparently even ICE cars are greener than ever before.

When they can operated as an EV, some are "greener" than some "pure" EVs. Their EV modes have higher miles per kWh than others, and if any of the electricity was hydrocarbon, it's possible for a EREV to have a smaller CO2 footprint for a typical 12,000 mile a year driver than a Pure EV.
 
The i3 Rex has more batteries than the Chevy Spark. I don't care about arbitrary distinctions, I care about how well a vehicle drives on electricity. Since I believe the electric drivetrain is superior to a gasoline drivetrain the rest will take care of itself.
If you want an EV, buy an EV, if you want an ICE buy an ICE, if you want a PHEV buy a PHEV, just stop pretending one is the other.
 
A PHEV is still a different class than an EV. If you insist that they're identical, I challenge you to explain why a PHEV can't equally be called an ICE.

I never said a PHEV and an EV were identical. They are subclasses of plugin in vehicles and PHEVs and gasoline hybrids should not be grouped together.

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If you want an EV, buy an EV, if you want an ICE buy an ICE, if you want a PHEV buy a PHEV, just stop pretending one is the other.

I'm not pretending one is the other. I just think the capability of the electric drivetrain is more important than whether it also has an ICE.
 
I never said a PHEV and an EV were identical. They are subclasses of plugin in vehicles and PHEVs and gasoline hybrids should not be grouped together.
I'm not pretending one is the other. I just think the capability of the electric drivetrain is more important than whether it also has an ICE.
Various people on here however ARE making exactly that argument, they're calling the Volt an EV, they're calling the i3 with Rex an EV. They aren't. I'm not saying these aren't good cars, or excellent PHEVs, I'm not saying some people don't use them almost exclusively on electricity, I'm just saying that doesn't change what they fundamentally ARE.
I still maintain that "plugin" is a ridiculous, and stupid category, I might as well just call them "vehicles", it tells me nothing about what it is.
 
There you go using sound logic. I used one of our Volts yesterday to run a friend to a doctors visit quite a ways away. ICE only started up on the way back after the battery was fully depleted. Charged when I got home and then went out later that day running only on battery for 25+ miles (no ICE ever).

JRP3 only purpose is to antagonize. He doesn't use logic. He doesn't even own a Tesla but constantly post here ... that is telling.

You say the engine started and then put 'no ICE ever' in bold about second trip. You wouldn't have made that first trip with ICE backup, right?

Would the same people who say the Volt is an EV have bought a Leaf with a 40 mile range and no quick charging? If you wouldn't, why not? You bought a Volt for a reason and that is the ICE backup. It's still the best PHEV on the market in that you can effectively drive an EV all day if your trips are short enough or you have charging throughout the day. That doesn't make it physically an EV even if practically it is 90+% of the time for most owners.
 
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Various people on here however ARE making exactly that argument, they're calling the Volt an EV, they're calling the i3 with Rex an EV. They aren't. I'm not saying these aren't good cars, or excellent PHEVs, I'm not saying some people don't use them almost exclusively on electricity, I'm just saying that doesn't change what they fundamentally ARE.
I still maintain that "plugin" is a ridiculous, and stupid category, I might as well just call them "vehicles", it tells me nothing about what it is.

And I maintain that "Hybrid" is a ridiculous category (about as useful as talking about automatic transmission cars). The Volt is indisputably a PHEV, the Model S is indisputably a plugin vehicle. I don't like EREV, so you can argue that with somebody else. What is the most useful terminology is not clear. So there we are (until next time).
 
And I maintain that "Hybrid" is a ridiculous category (about as useful as talking about automatic transmission cars). The Volt is indisputably a PHEV, the Model S is indisputably a plugin vehicle. I don't like EREV, so you can argue that with somebody else. What is the most useful terminology is not clear. So there we are (until next time).
Hybrid is only a useless category because it was misused originally. A vehicle that never had a plugin and was powered 100% by an ICE, should never have been allowed to call itself a hybrid, regardless of what it did with batteries and electric motors in the middle. Most of them couldn't beat a good diesel in fuel economy anyway, and every bit was powered by gasoline.
Now I'll agree with you that PHEV vs ICE is far more useful than "hybrid" which really could be in either of those categories.
 
... Would the same people who say the Volt is an EV have bought a Leaf with a 40 mile range and no quick charging? ...

Some would not have bought a Leaf with 200 mile EV range over a Volt. EV power delivery is superior to ICE, but only if it doesn't suck.

Leaf's are too slow. There is an acceptable threshold of acceleration for the $35k auto market and the Leaf doesn't have it. Handling like a minivan sure doesn't help either.

If that were the only option at that price point, perhaps. But it's not.

The Spark EV has acceptable acceleration (about 1/3 more acceleration, on par with the Volt), but too little range to be realistic, just like the Leaf.
 
In the end, you buy what is best for you and the more electricity you use over gas or diesel, the better.

However, there are basic compromise problems with PHEVs, especially as you go up in size. Fundamentally there is a balance issue of mass and volume dedicated to the electric versus ICE powertrains. You can see the difference between the BMW i3 REX approach and a light PHEV, like the Mercedes Benz C350 with a 6.2 kWh battery. On a small, lightweight car like the Volt with little expectations for a lot of room or performance, a PHEV can make a lot of sense for now. But you'll note that the battery chemistries involved, the motor designs, and the charging systems are all different in significant ways from long range BEVs. I do worry that if PHEVs were much more popular than BEVs, that will set back the development of the necessary charging infrastructure for BEVs, especially long range BEVs. The charging habits of PHEVs, short range BEVs, and long range BEVs are all different and the physical infrastructure to support them is also different.

As one moves up to the CUV and SUVs that are lightly converted to PHEVs, you'll see that they still have very small motors with low hp ratings and high torque, small batteries with low specific energy but high power density, and they often have problems with battery packaging. The resulting electric range is very poor, the performance of a sub 100 hp motor moving 4,000-5,500 pounds means poor performance in EV mode and therefore the ICE powertrain comes on very easily. The add-on cost of the electric drivetrain is then hard to justify and might actually set back EVs in general as both automaker and consumer perceptions are damaged.
 
GM made up the term "EREV" to hide the fact they weren't making a pure EV, many people have made up all sorts of terms.

I don't think GM was trying to "hide" anything here. They have always promoted the Volt as an electric car with an ICE range extender. People clearly get that. They can drive on electricity and then use the ICE to go further if they need to.
 
Is there a technical distinction between EV and BEV?
No, BEV has become necessary to differentiate real EVs from fake EVs I rarely use BEV because it shouldn't be necessary, but unfortunately as manufacturers try to push non-EVs as EVs, you need to clarify BEV, soon I'm sure a manufacturer will call something with an ICE "BEV" for the marketting, and we'll have to come up with TIAABPVADNHAOFOPINMWYWTCI (this is actually a battery powered vehicle and does not have any other form of power input no matter what you want to call it) for our real EVs

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I don't think GM was trying to "hide" anything here. They have always promoted the Volt as an electric car with an ICE range extender. People clearly get that. They can drive on electricity and then use the ICE to go further if they need to.
No, they spent years pre-release promoting it as an EV, it wasn't until after it finally actually launched that I learned that it was actually a hybrid.
 
In fact in my example you quoted I acknowledge the different design, construction, and performance characteristics between different types of ICE's, but I don't reclassify them as anything other than ICE's. A low powered 4 cyl ICE obviously has quite different operating characteristics than a high powered V8 ICE. The point is you can take into account the differences between vehicles within a class without having to make up a new class. The Volt and PiP have some different operating characteristics but both are plugin hybrids.

Yes, they are plug-in hybrids. But they are also both plug-in vehicles. Why does it matter that they are hybrids?
 
This is going to keep going around in circles, so here we go again.

GM already admitted the Volt is a Hybrid. They were caught in their LIE. So please wake up. Take the red pill.
The Volt WILL use gas in its lifetime. There is no going around it unless it is modified from how GM made it from the factory >> see above sentence.

This is like a smoker smoking less (maybe once a week) and vaping (e-cig) the rest. Less harmful, but it's still killing you.
 
No, they spent years pre-release promoting it as an EV, it wasn't until after it finally actually launched that I learned that it was actually a hybrid.
I've been following the Volt very closely from the moment it was first disclosed as a concept car at the Detroit auto show in January, 2007. It was never described or positioned as a BEV. It has always had an ICE.
 
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I've been following the Volt very closely from the moment it was first disclosed as a concept car at the Detroit auto show in January, 2007. It was never described or positioned as a BEV. It has always had an ICE.
It always HAD an ICE, it wasn't always MARKETED that way. Only those following it closely (like yourself) knew it wasn't an EV, and they took great pains to maintain that illusion, going even so far as to try to create a whole new name for PHEV (EREV) because they didn't want to admit what the vehicle really was. Those not "in the know" assumed EREV meant an EV with a bigger battery, and GM wanted people to believe exactly that.