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Q4 2013 results - data points, projections and expectations

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Yep, $100 per charge sounds about right :rolleyes:. If you are going to constantly troll negatives about Tesla then at least put in a better effort to get simple math correct (not to mention that avg. price of electricity in Germany is lower than you claim, and those that have solar panels pay a lot less; and many do have panels on their roofs).

You are not adding any value or fooling anyone here with your constantly negative (or as you claim "realistic") posts on Tesla.

It is good to hear the negative side of the story, but when someone constantly looks for negatives in every Tesla related topic then that person's opinion becomes meaningless.

Word. Go hang out with your buddy tftf on SA. He hung out here for a while claiming to be a "realist" also, but it's simply not possible to see only negative about tesla, yet you two both manage it. As Sleepy pointed out, this makes everything you say meaningless. There is a difference between wanting a company to succeed yet seeing the obstacles as many members here do, and wanting them to fail no matter what, like you. Why do you spend so much of your time wishing Tesla to fail?

That reminds me, there is a function to ignore posts from certain users correct? I've never wanted to use that on a forum before, but this may be the first.
 
When I look at this I see GM, Chrysler, and Honda at the top of the buyers. I just did a search and GM and Chrysler seem to have just started selling their compliance cars last June and Honda recently lowered the price of their FIT EV. To me that says they got their act together and won't be needing to buy ZEV credits anymore. Am I missing something here?

It is far cheaper to sell a car at a $20,000 loss than buy a $154,000 credit so they can basically lower the price as far as they need to in order to sell enough cars. Also, they have until the end of next September to do it. In all fairness it seems like Jaguar Land Rover, Subaru, and Volkswagen don't have their act together but they required <100 credits last year. It seems to me like that puts ZEV revenue for the entire new cycle at less than $15 million.

On the other hand we could have a surprise left over from September of last year if it was transferred at the last minute and didn't hit the books for Q3. Please prove me wrong as I'd love to see solidly positive GAAP earnings to give the bears one less thing to harp on.

This is a good article that touches on compliance cars, sales and economics...RAV4 EV Owner Contemplates Future of the Car | PluginCars.com

they are trying to sell anything at a discount for just the reason you outline, but non-Tesla EVs just won't sell at the scale to meet the requirements...and those requirements increase fourfold in 2015, unless we have a redux of EV-1 and who killed the electric car and they suspend the regulation. I wouldn't just look at last year, but look at 2015. Even if GM, Chrysler and Honda are OK, which they are not, BMW, Ford and almost every automaker does not have and will not have the necessary ZEV credits and Tesla may not even have enough Model S & X production to meet the increased guidance for 2015.

If you have time, look up CapitalistOppressor's really detailed work on ZEV from last Spring/Summer. It will go in much greater detail about why without regulation change, which has not happened and I find unlikely, Tesla has an amazing recurring revenue stream that helped make them profitable in 2013 and will help them to about $3.30/share in 2014.

ZEV is what precipitated the first short squeeze, helped precipitate Teslas drop after Q3 earnings (add even $51 million to revenue and tell me that Q3 results are the same), and it seems to me have been forgotten in analyst estimates and even at TMC. It is one of many reasons I believe another tsunami is coming for shorts....but I could be sadly mistaken. Thanks for the questions and interest. Good luck.
 
and those requirements increase fourfold in 2015
Now you got me interested. Since more states signed on now I would think it would be harder to change the regulation too. I will go find CapitalistOppressor's posts when I get the chance.

Adding to my post I also see that the credits listed on that page are multiplied by an index "g/mi GMOG" so if Tesla gets 5 credits per car they are then multiplied by 0.043 so each credit as listed in these tables is equivalent to about 5 cars or so. That means they got more like $30,000 per car or more if they got 7 credits and less if only 4. Either way that is a much smaller number and one that seems much more sustainable to me. I was wondering why they only had 1,000 credits or so.
 
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Yep, $100 per charge sounds about right :rolleyes:. If you are going to constantly troll negatives about Tesla then at least put in a better effort to get simple math correct (not to mention that avg. price of electricity in Germany is lower than you claim, and those that have solar panels pay a lot less; and many do have panels on their roofs).

You are not adding any value or fooling anyone here with your constantly negative (or as you claim "realistic") posts on Tesla.

It is good to hear the negative side of the story, but when someone constantly looks for negatives in every Tesla related topic then that person's opinion becomes meaningless.

Wikipedia, IEA and other sites post world electric prices. They are out there and range from .36-.40 for Germany. Let's agree Germany is roughly Hawaii pricing.

Kilowatt Hours Electricity Costs Around the World | The Energy Collective

I know I sound like someone who just joined the country club and say golf is stupid. The point is EV advocates cannot be entirely be blind to the headwinds in countries which do not have incentives. I am trying to understand the whole world landscape for the future of EVs and it will be challenging. For example, the highest carbon footprint in the US per household is in the midwest. Some interesting graphs here:

Zip Code and Carbon Emissions Examinations | The Energy Collective

There are three types of people, at least, on TMC. Tesla owners-reservation holders, EV advocates/fans and lastly Tesla stock players. I am in the last two of these. I have made enough trading to pay for a Tesla but am compounding gains rather than spending it on a car. I do expect to own a Tesla at some point, perhaps a used one. I need far more superchargers on my area of the map before it is viable for me. The EV marketplace is very immature now and i see it when I go to the shopping malls and stores. All I see are SUVs, pickups, mini vans and people trying to maintain a semblance of normality as they continue to face higher prices of goods and services. They care more about the type of micro-brew they are buying today than concerns for world CO2 levels tomorrow. The fuel prices in Europe are what I think will drive the growth of EVs there and I believe the model-E will do well there once it is built.

One problem we need to fix in the USA is to switch from a tax credit for EVs and make it a rebate so that all income classes can benefit from them. Other country's incentive programs seem to be across all income classes. Canada's is quite good and Quebec just re-raised their rebate to $8000 and increased charging equipment rebate to $1000. Time for another gallery presence in Quebec.
 
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Germany was mentioned above. With public electric prices there at .39-.40 per kWh, the use of free supercharging may be preferred by buyers. At home charging is about 2.5 miles per dollar (quite a bit less if driven on the Autobahn at high speed). I know it matters less for the wealthy but will matter more for ME buyers eventually.

My math was really wrong here. :(

.40/kWh is not 2.5 miles per dollar but rather 8 miles per dollar. Sorry about that. Wasn't trolling.

in hydro-rich northwest and perhaps Ontario, with .06-.08/kWh it is more like 30 miles per dollar. Germany still can be up to three times as expensive as these other locations.

90kWh (from wall, at home) range recharge at .40 = $36 and compared to $8 gallon premium or $7 diesel in a 20-30 mpg car, electric is a better deal by more than 2x. Public supercharging will benefit further since it is free.
 
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So, let's get this math done right in one post:

Model S:
Price of power in Germany = US$0.35/kWh = €0.26/kWh
Wh/mile = 300; Wh/km = 186
€/100 km = €4.84

Audi S7:
Price petrol in Germany = €1.50/liter
Fuel consumption: 9.6 l/100-km
€/100 km = €14.40

So in Germany the Model S fuel cost is about 1/3 of the fuel cost of the closest competitor (taking as given the manufacturers' mileage ratings; YMMV).

Having said that, the Model S 85P seems to cost about €18,000 more than a similarly equipped Audi S7. Assuming stable petrol and power prices, that purchase gap requires about 200,000 km of driving before the operating cost savings overtakes the capital cost.

In any case, I don't see the operating cost of the Model S as being a hinderance to its adoption in the EU; quite the opposite, the operating cost is a plus that offsets, in part, the purchase premium. Moreover, EU countries will provide some subsidies to EVs to improve balance-of-trade issues: the EU imports nearly all its petroleum, but it can produce much of its own electricity needs.
 
Bonaire, your also discounting the fact that it's not just about the $ to people. I will be buying a Tesla, which is significantly more than I would pay for any ice vehicle, because it's something I believe in. This is the one fact that shorts completely ignore because they can't punch it into their calculator. It's a paradigm shift and it's happening now.
 
ZEV is what precipitated the first short squeeze, helped precipitate Teslas drop after Q3 earnings (add even $51 million to revenue and tell me that Q3 results are the same), and it seems to me have been forgotten in analyst estimates and even at TMC. It is one of many reasons I believe another tsunami is coming for shorts....but I could be sadly mistaken. Thanks for the questions and interest. Good luck.

Do you have any info on why ZEV credits are traded more heavily in certain quarters than others? More specifically, do you have any info that Q4 was a quarter that Tesla was able to sell a lot of ZEV credits?
 
We're actually seeing 180-230 Wh/km in current weather here in Germany. When Autobahn driving is involved (120km/h and more), consumption ranges between 250 and 270Wh/km were reported.

That's between 290 and 370Wh/mi driving, 400 to 430 Wh/mi @Autobahn.
 
I think the point was that this comparison was based on rated usage. I think if you drive the Audi or BMW at autobahn speeds you're also not consuming the placard l/100km but far more :) wether the two usages (Model S and Audi fuel consumption) correlate 100% or not is hard to guess. But otherwise you should just make a coefficient of inefficiency for both in which case it's equivalent to driving more effective km reaching the parity faster.
 
After searching a bit, I found this article: http://www.green-motors.de/news/131...sungen-okt-2013-bmw-fuehrt-vor-tela-und-smart It´s stating that there were an estimated 180 Model S registrations in Germany in October, just below the BMW i3 at 197. I think it is safe to say there were at least the same number in Nov and Dec, so I´d estimate 540 for Q4. (As Germany has somewhat less than 10 times the number of citizens as Austria, the per capita Model S registrations is actually better ;).

One thing to consider when judging Tesla´s progress in Germany is also that there are quite a few established German car brands, which makes comparison to Norway or the Netherlands hard. Also I think those countries have much better financial incentives than we do.

There have been delivered 135 Model S in Germany in the 4th quarter according to this posting in the german Tesla-Board: Tesla-Fahrer und -Freunde Forum Thema anzeigen - Zulassungszahlen (KBA) für 2013
Needless to say that user Volker.Berlin is legit (he is a Model S-owner and a mod of that board) and the numbers are consistent with other data points.
 
^This.

Don't forget guys, that when you see those official mpg or l/100km figures for ICEs, that's the Disney version. My dad has a Cayenne, and the only thing scarier than the highway fuel consumption is the amount of engine oil it burns. Up to 0.7-1l per 1000km!!! And Porsche says .5-.7 is normal(!).
 
Do you have any info on why ZEV credits are traded more heavily in certain quarters than others? More specifically, do you have any info that Q4 was a quarter that Tesla was able to sell a lot of ZEV credits?

Dave,

Thanks for the question, and the short answer is no, I can't predict ZEV sales by quarters. The long answer is a combination of resources and inferences let me sum these up as quickly as possible.

If you haven't read Capitalist Oppressor's opus on ZEV, it's worth it: Regulatory Credits - How BMW and Daimler Will Fund Tesla's Conquest of the World

I particularly like this summary as an initial answer to your question:

"Nothing prevents an automaker from purchasing Tesla credits and banking them for future use. And there is no requirement that Tesla sell any of its credits right now. So the actual pace of sales is not necessarily driven by current needs, but rather by an attempt by both sides to maximize utility."

So a couple bullet points about Q4 and why I think this will be a good quarter for ZEV:

- Q4 2012 and Q1 2013 were good last year....while this is a small data set, the ZEV revenue looked to be 100% of ZEV credits produced for Q4 2012, Q1 2013 and Q2 2013, then the large drop from $51 million to $10 million that coincided with the changeover of the program year on September 30, 2013.

- There is a reporting requirement on May 1st. Once again from Cap Opp's Opus, "On balance, I think its likely that speculation about Q1 revenue from regulatory credits has substantially understated the potential, especially since $5,000/credit looks to be a minimum, and manufacturers had an incentive to get to a positive balance before the May 1st reporting deadline. This is very much a sellers market."

- 2013 was a catch up year, 2014 is the rump/pay it forward year. For Q4 2012 and Q1 2013 the automakers needed to catch up for cars produced in 2012 as there were very few ZEV credits on the market because Tesla just started to produce cars. For 2014, this is the last year that only .79% of sales need to be pure EV...in 2015, 3% of sales need to be ZEV. The market is about to almost quadruple at about the time the Model X is coming on line and there are very few compliance cars selling to meet the requirement.

- Increasing auto sales. In addition to the % of sales that have to be ZEV, the overall # of sales increased by over 10% last year in California, so the market for ZEV is at least 10% greater.

I don't know if TESLA will sell all their credits in Q4, but I am intrigued by the beating they took in Q3 with a pretty good report and low ZEV and if they would want to turn that part of the story around. I also think with the announcement of the giga-battery factory, they will want to show how they will pay for this new investment and revenue over $100 million for a quarter would help. I also rely some on Elon's comments from last year (and look forward to his comments this earnings call about ZEV). Tesla and Elon have the best read on the market as they are the market maker - he not only nailed last year's trend, but telegraphed it. I don't know if that means no ZEV for Q4 or massive ZEV for Q4...I'm leaning toward the latter.

Hope this helps, let me know what you think.
 
I also rely some on Elon's comments from last year (and look forward to his comments this earnings call about ZEV). Tesla and Elon have the best read on the market as they are the market maker - he not only nailed last year's trend, but telegraphed it. I don't know if that means no ZEV for Q4 or massive ZEV for Q4...I'm leaning toward the latter.

Hi Bgarret, thanks for taking time to share your thoughts.

In Q1 2013 ER (Tesla Motors Inc (TSLA): Tesla Motors' CEO Discusses Q1 2013 Results - Earnings Call Transcript - Seeking Alpha): (bold face is my emphasis)

Ben Schuman - Pacific Crest Securities - I guess my first question is around the ZEV credits, you disclose the amount of revenue in Q1, can you say how much is implied in the Q2 gross margin guidance and kind of its part of that what are some of the big gross margin drivers to get from that 5% level now, excluding the ZEV revenue to 25% and do you expect that 25% of those without whatever positive impact from the lease accounting that you might see?
Elon Musk - Chairman, CEO, and Product Architect - Okay. There is like few questions in there. Yeah, so we’re expecting a decline in the credit revenue for Q2 and then probably fairly significant decline in Q3 and as I said back right now, we’re not expecting anything in Q4. That’s our – I mean, it might be some ZEV credit revenue in Q4, but we’re not accounting on it. I don’t have – I can’t give anymore precision than that at this time.

[later on in conference call]

Patrick Archambault - Goldman Sachs

That’s helpful. If I can just squeeze one more, if that’s okay, just – I know your guidance for the 25% doesn’t include ZEV credits for the fourth quarter, but I don’t know – can you help us just bracket that possibility that there might be some, are you in talks with, I mean, clearly you have the volume to have further ZEV credit, so obviously are you in talks with other manufacturers for these kinds of credits? I mean is there any kind of feeling of probability that you can give us that would allow us to sort of handicap that?
Elon Musk - Chairman, CEO, and Product Architect
I mean, I think we’re – I would realistically handicap it at zero for the fourth quarter
Patrick Archambault - Goldman Sachs
Okay.
Elon Musk - Chairman, CEO, and Product Architect
… which is not, I mean, we will sell them if we can, but as we really anticipate saturating demand for ZEV credits, probably in the third quarter. So maybe that’s not true, but I wouldn’t – for purposes of modeling our financials, I’d recommend assuming zero percent credits in Q4.


It appears pretty clear that Elon is telling investors to expect zero or close to zero ZEV credit income for Q4.

I'm still open to seeing evidence that Tesla has significant Q4 ZEV income but until then it's probably wise to heed Elon's advice.

Does anybody know how much ZEV income Tesla had in Q3 2012?
 
Does anybody know how much ZEV income Tesla had in Q3 2012?
From Q3 2012 10-Q

Other Assets

As of September 30, 2012 and December 31, 2011, our other assets consisted of the following (in thousands):











September 30,
2012


December 31,
2011

Emission credits
$14,392

$14,508
Go in here and search on either "emissions" or "ZEV" : EDGAR Pro - TSLA Q3 '12
 
Does anybody know how much ZEV income Tesla had in Q3 2012?

Good question, I've been trying to find the answer as well. Here's what I found so far, only info about the number of credits but not how much $$

For the period between Oct 1, 2011 and Sept 30, 2012: 31.605 ZEV credits, with a balance of 0 ZEV credits remaining.

For the period between Oct 1, 2012 and Sept 30, 2013: 1311.520 ZEV credits, with a balance of 276.08 ZEV credits remaining.

So, at the end of Q3 '13, Tesla still had a bunch of ZEV credits in their account. I can't find the data on ZEV credit prices, though.

- - - Updated - - -

From Q3 2012 10-Q

Other Assets

As of September 30, 2012 and December 31, 2011, our other assets consisted of the following (in thousands):











September 30,
2012


December 31,
2011

Emission credits
$14,392

$14,508
Go in here and search on either "emissions" or "ZEV" : EDGAR Pro - TSLA Q3 '12

Well, according to ARB their ZEV credit balance as of Sept 30, 2012 would have been 0, so I don't know how they would have had ~$15 million in ZEV credit assets

EDIT: They could be referring to credits other than ZEV... I'm not very familiar with these so if anyone knows of other emission credits, I'd be interested to know.
 
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