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Q4 2016 ER Modeling / Predictions

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Solarcity revenue in Q3 was 200million, tesla had 2.3 billion. Q3 was very good for Solarcity, so I expect revenue just from solar installations will be around that (maybe +/-15%).
But Solarcity selled solar portfolios this quarter for about 241million (Tesla’s SolarCity sells $241 million equity in its solar portfolio).
So this can compensate the whole Solarcity loss, but Solarcity don't change much about Tesla finacial situation.

What you think guys, do we see the same shitstorm as seen at Q3 release? Shorts are so silent in the last days...
 
There are more cost to this. The entire GF they have built, no matter if only 10% or 90% of the space is utilized, is a depreciation cost on the activities happening there. In Q3 they already have the robots assembling the pack so it shouldn't be a big factor to the then high cost. But the mostly empty space of the huge factory shared by so little output is the biggest cost item.
Are you sure about that? Aren't the costs of the buildings and installed machinery fully kept on the balance sheet until something is produced from them? On the tour at the end of July there were 4 sections. Only the first was completed and it was being used to assemble TE packs. The other 3 weren't completed and weren't producing anything. During Q4 one or two additional sections were being used to do test production of TE cells. IANAA but I believe that for Q4 it is only that one section of the Gigafactory that was being used for actual production that will have to be depreciated.
 
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Are you sure about that? Aren't the costs of the buildings and installed machinery fully kept on the balance sheet until something is produced from them? On the tour at the end of July there were 4 sections. Only the first was completed and it was being used to assemble TE packs. The other 3 weren't completed and weren't producing anything. During Q4 one or two additional sections were being used to do test production of TE cells. IANAA but I believe that for Q4 it is only that one section of the Gigafactory that was being used for actual production that will have to be depreciated.
This is my impression after some exchanges with another TMC member whom I believe have a good understanding on the accounting. I also do think this should be the case because otherwise how could they lose money on making those TE in 2016?
 
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This is my impression after some exchanges with another TMC member whom I believe have a good understanding on the accounting. I also do think this should be the case because otherwise how could they lose money on making those TE in 2016?
I just spoke to a friend who is a retired corporate accountant. He said that the guiding principle is that you start depreciating an asset when it is put into service for its intended purpose. This would mean:
- none of the 5 sections still under construction are being depreciated
- the one section that is producing powerpacks/walls is definitely being depreciated
- the two sections producing Panasonic cells fall into a gray area because in Q4 they were producing test cells but not revenue.
 
I just spoke to a friend who is a retired corporate accountant. He said that the guiding principle is that you start depreciating an asset when it is put into service for its intended purpose. This would mean:
- none of the 5 sections still under construction are being depreciated
- the one section that is producing powerpacks/walls is definitely being depreciated
- the two sections producing Panasonic cells fall into a gray area because in Q4 they were producing test cells but not revenue.
Nice info, thanks!
 
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@EinSV Curious to hear how you think Q4 deliveries (22,200) impact your Q4 estimates from a few months ago? Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016

I'm most interested in how you're seeing it impact cash generation for Q4.\

Btw, for those who haven't seen EinSV's prior estimates for Q4, I think they're very notable to study and understand... especially the potential of cash generation via Model S/X to fund M3 capital needs. This was something I was missing and EinSV helped me see a few months ago. I think Tesla's cash generation was the big story for Q3 earnings, and if confirmed again for Q4 (and beyond) could be very bullish. It makes Tesla less dependent on capital raises and squashes one of the biggest bear narratives.
 
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@EinSV Curious to hear how you think Q4 deliveries (22,200) impact your Q4 estimates from a few months ago? Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016

I'm most interested in how you're seeing it impact cash generation for Q4.\

Btw, for those who haven't seen EinSV's prior estimates for Q4, I think they're very notable to study and understand... especially the potential of cash generation via Model S/X to fund M3 capital needs. This was something I was missing and EinSV helped me see a few months ago. I think Tesla's cash generation was the big story for Q3 earnings, and if confirmed again for Q4 (and beyond) could be very bullish. It makes Tesla less dependent on capital raises and squashes one of the biggest bear narratives.

@DaveT, the reduced deliveries are not going to help (obviously). Also, as I mentioned in a few posts the substantial post-election currency swing will also have a significant negative impact on margins, and will also impact cash generation: Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016 (posts 51220 and 51223).

I have company in town for the weekend but will try to re-run the numbers tomorrow night or Monday morning.
 
@DaveT, the reduced deliveries are not going to help (obviously). Also, as I mentioned in a few posts the substantial post-election currency swing will also have a significant negative impact on margins, and will also impact cash generation: Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016 (posts 51220 and 51223) , links below...

I have company in town for the weekend but will try to re-run the numbers tomorrow night or Monday morning.
Adding links:
Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016

Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016
 
This excerpt is particularly concerning because as noted in a later post, the USD appreciated ~7% against a "basket of currencies". Do the math and if it had happened in 3Q results, TSLA's pretax income of $30m would have been reduce by ~$182m, or ($152m).

Not sure what the offsets are to costs in 4Q 2016, but looks like there may not be a surprise positive income like some have suggested.

Would love to get @EinSV thoughts on this after he runs #s though.
 

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My prediction is that unless Tesla announces a substantial problem or delay with the MS-MX production, or TE, or the M3 ramp that the SP will continue it's upward trend.
<Snip>
I believe that the reason that the SP increased in spite of the miss is that all of the catalysts that we have been aware of for the last two years are imminent. I now believe that unless Tesla provides information that they expect a substantial M3 delay, as long as it appears to be roughly on track that there won't be a substantial SP drop.
 
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This excerpt is particularly concerning because as noted in a later post, the USD appreciated ~7% against a "basket of currencies". Do the math and if it had happened in 3Q results, TSLA's pretax income of $30m would have been reduce by ~$182m, or ($152m).

Not sure what the offsets are to costs in 4Q 2016, but looks like there may not be a surprise positive income like some have suggested.

Would love to get @EinSV thoughts on this after he runs #s though.

When you say USD appreciated 7% against a basket of currencies, you mean that was the average change over Q4 or that was the difference between the start and end of Q4? And doesn't Tesla get a bit of that back with foreign component suppliers? USD appreciation savings on some of that $500(?) million accounts payable?
 
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Following up on @DaveT's post, I don't believe the Q4 delivery miss of about 3,000 vehicles (I had assumed guidance of 25.2K v. 22.2K actual) will have a material impact on Tesla's ability to generate cash for the Model 3 ramp since it will basically shift cash generation from Q4 2016 to early Q1 2017.

Tesla reported that production was about 25K but that 2750 deliveries were delayed in transport or the customer was unable to take delivery. Production delays were also attributed to the switch from AP1 to AP2. For Q4 numbers, worst case scenario is that Tesla incurred all of the costs for the delayed deliveries and collected nothing from customers. If that were the case, the hit on operating cash generation (operating cash flow plus cash generated from sales to leasing partners) for Q4 would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $280M using @Fallenone's estimated ASPs of $87K for Model S and $104K for Model X.

It will probably be somewhat less than that because Tesla appears to have collected payment for some of these vehicles in Q4 (I have no idea what percentage). Also, it seems likely that one of the root causes of the shortfall -- production delays from the AP2 switchover -- means that many of the expenses associated with these vehicles were incurred late in the quarter so may show up in Accounts Payable rather than as a hit to cash flow. Overall, my WAG is that this will result in $150M to $225M in operating cash flow/cash generation being shifted from Q4 2016 to Q1 2017.

This would reduce my estimate of cash generation from my $485M estimate in November to $260M-$335M, not including ZEV credits and Powerwall deposits.

To reiterate, I think this will have little or no impact on Tesla's ability to generate cash for Model 3 production. For example, if as has been reported the December China shipment was delayed because of a port shutdown due to pollution, Tesla's payment for those vehicles presumably should be delayed by just a few weeks or less.

Cash flows will also likely be reduced somewhat due to the strengthening dollar. Since Tesla has recently made price adjustments overseas hopefully this problem has been addressed to some extent going forward, although Tesla will continue to have currency risk. Unlike the delivery miss, however, this lost cash flow will not be recovered unless the dollar weakens.

From September 30, 2016 to December 31, 2016 the dollar gained 6.39% compared to a basket of major currencies, with most of the change occurring after the election. Trade Weighted U.S. Dollar Index: Major Currencies (This is slightly lower than the figure in my December 26, 2016 post because the dollar dropped a bit at the end of the year).

As @Turing suggests, using end of year data to assess the impact on cash flow from operations is probably not the right metric (although if we have any accountants who want to weigh in please do!). Using the FRED's monthly data and weighting the months toward the end of the quarter more heavily to reflect Tesla's delivery cycle (50% December/September 33% November/August and 17% October/September) results in a rough estimated exchange rate difference of about 4.1% over Q3.

This will only apply to overseas sales. Using insideEVs US Q4 delivery numbers (13,675) the Q4 split should be about 61.5%US/38.5% overseas. This is tilted toward US sales, but that is consistent with the bulk of the delayed deliveries being to Europe and China.

A rough estimate of operating cash generation reduction due to the change in the exchange rate is .041*.385*$2.1B or $33M. This should be a conservative number since as @Turing notes Tesla sources batteries and other parts from overseas and will get the benefit of the exchange rate changes on the production side, which I have not included.

I should note that Tesla's disclosure of up to a $259M hit on earnings with a maximum expected 10% currency fluctuation suggests that the foreign exchange hit on earnings (versus operating cash flow) could be higher, possibly significantly higher. Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016

Since a significant part of this hit apparently has to do with reconciling foreign accounts rather than operational cash flows, it is possible that the higher end of quarter exchange rate difference (6.39%) will be in play for a significant portion of the currency adjustments. I have not had time to put together earnings estimates but I would encourage people who are to look into this, since at first blush it has the potential to have a major impact on earnings.

The strengthening dollar may also negatively impact cash flow from financing activities and investing activities. This is a complex area both in terms of accounting and Tesla's finances and financial instruments and I have not had the chance to dig into how the currency changes will affect these cash flows, but perhaps someone with accounting expertise or more knowledge on this issue can weigh in.

As mentioned in my earlier posts, cash flow numbers are based on many variables and can also vary significantly from quarter to quarter so these numbers should be taken with a huge grain of salt. They also don't include cash flows from the solar business, although others have discussed that. Also, my main interest is in Tesla's ability to generate cash over the medium and long-term, so quarterly variations are not only not of great concern to me but expected. Since the delivery miss is presumably already priced in, I don't know whether the market will care about cash flow numbers one way or another, unless they are extreme in either direction, or Tesla provides further detail on capital needs and whether a cap raise is needed or not.
 
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When you say USD appreciated 7% against a basket of currencies, you mean that was the average change over Q4 or that was the difference between the start and end of Q4? And doesn't Tesla get a bit of that back with foreign component suppliers? USD appreciation savings on some of that $500(?) million accounts payable?

Someone else mentioned the 7%, forgot where I read it. That's just how much the USD appreciate in 4Q.

The adjustment I estimated is 70% of the amount Tesla provided in their disclosures for 3Q reporting.. which was based on 10% USD appreciation. That was in my screenshot attachment.
 
@EinSV How come you aren't estimating any cashflow from PW2 deposits? It seems like it could be material, on the order of 100MM or so for Q4.

I had $50M in Powerwall 2 deposits in my earlier cash generation estimates for Q4. I think that's conservative (your number could be better) but will stick with it until we hear from Tesla. Sorry should have mentioned that. I have not tried to estimate ZEV credits since they are so volatile from quarter-to-quarter but assume they will have some for Q4.
 
I had $50M in Powerwall 2 deposits in my earlier cash generation estimates for Q4. I think that's conservative (your number could be better) but will stick with it until we hear from Tesla. Sorry should have mentioned that. I have not tried to estimate ZEV credits since they are so volatile from quarter-to-quarter but assume they will have some for Q4.

Wonder if we could see some surprises with powerpack 2 deposits in Q4. PP2 seems to be ramping fast, it seems possible they booked significant deposits for that in Q4? Q1 is showing signs of material PP2 installs.
 
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Wonder if we could see some surprises with powerpack 2 deposits in Q4. PP2 seems to be ramping fast, it seems possible they booked significant deposits for that in Q4? Q1 is showing signs of material PP2 installs.

I will be very interested to hear what sort of details they provide on PP2/PW2 orders and TE guidance generally. If they are planning something along the lines of what @Yggdrasill has suggested for 2017 (which seems very doable) that could shake things up since the market and most analysts don't seem to be factoring in much contribution from TE.

I tend to think they will be light on details about TE so are in a position to "under promise, over deliver" and also not provide too much info to competitors. But this will definitely be something worth keeping an eye on since tangible, positive info on TE could surprise a lot of people.
 
There was automated pack assembly but no Gigafactory cell production in Q42016.
Do cells have to age, or raw material? Would cells that came off the line on January 4th be in production packs already? I'm assuming very little complete GF production until march and even less revenue recognized is Q1.
I'm also assuming margins close to zero for cells from Japan and then about 20-30% as all production is done in GF. My last assumption, which I hope is wrong, is that they are capacity constrained at 100 million in quarterly revenue until GF is up, which will be Q2. Upside is probably 200+ TE in Q2 and 500 million + in Q4. Close to 1 Billion in TE for 2017 and ~15 billion in Tesla auto and neutral solar has got to be good for stock value from here.