Question about the Model S charger

[SByer]

For overnight charging at home, why go to the expense of buying and installing this charger?

I don't know about the 14-50, but the 10-30 I went with isn't so good with the insertion/removal rating (I think the 14-50 is bit better, but...), so I leave the 10-30 pigtail connected to that socket and disconnect the RFMC at the CA connector (which is definitely better at insertion count).

I was lucky, the garage backs to the laundry room, and we have a gas dryer, so the 10-30 was only about $30 in parts and an hour of labor. I've never hit a situation where 240v/30a wasn't good enough, but every situation is different.

 

[Tommy]

The main advantage is that if you have fellow Tesla owners visiting, you can get them charged up and on their way quicker. This also applies to your own car as mentioned above.
It also looks slicker and is an all in one unit if that matters that can be permanently installed. You're right though in that you can get by just fine with a NEMA 14-50 outlet. That's what I have.

As I understand the HPC and HPC2, they are not chargers per say, but "smart switches" AKA: EVSE (Electric Vehicle Service Equipment). The charger is built into the car. In the Model S case. the car comes standard with one 10K charger with the optional second (or possible 3rd) charger at additional cost. The result is if your fellow Tesla owner isn't driving a roadster and only has the standard optioned Model S with one charger their charge times are going to be the same as the 14-50 outlet. Get the second in car charger installed and the HPC2 can be put to good use. At least that's how I understand it.

 

[cinergi]

As I understand the HPC and HPC2, they are not chargers per say, but "smart switches" AKA: EVSE (Electric Vehicle Service Equipment). The charger is built into the car. In the Model S case. the car comes standard with one 10K charger with the optional second (or possible 3rd) charger at additional cost. The result is if your fellow Tesla owner isn't driving a roadster and only has the standard optioned Model S with one charger their charge times are going to be the same as the 14-50 outlet. Get the second in car charger installed and the HPC2 can be put to good use. At least that's how I understand it.

That's what I took away from the Beta event, too.

BTW, a 14-50 is at most 9.6kW which means ~9 hours to charge a depleted 300-mile pack. (For me I have 208V so it's 8.3kW or ~10 hours) (And yes, I realize that's 0-100% which is rare and I also haven't taken charge efficiency or power-tapering at the end into account; for comparison using the same math, the Roadster will charge 0-245 in ~5.5 hours) The HPC2 is somewhat attractive at this point because that cuts those numbers in half.

 

[Larry Chanin]

The HPC would allow faster charging. For example, if you get home from work and you have to leave a few hours later for some event, then you'd be able to charge up enough to attend. Definitely something that can wait 'til the car is paid for and to see if there's really a need for it.

You could also make it available for fellow travelers. :biggrin:

The main advantage is that if you have fellow Tesla owners visiting, you can get them charged up and on their way quicker. This also applies to your own car as mentioned above.
It also looks slicker and is an all in one unit if that matters that can be permanently installed. You're right though in that you can get by just fine with a NEMA 14-50 outlet. That's what I have.

Right; charging from a 240V outlet to "top up" on a nightly basis would be good enough without this HPC. TEG's classification of the options from a different thread: What charge port connector?

Thanks guys,

To put this in perspective, if I were discussing the Roadster charging options the best we could do would be about 4 hours with the High Power Wall Connector and 6 hours with the Universal Mobile Connector into a NEMA 14-50 outlet. This is just a 2 hour difference. Do we expect the 240 volt charging options for the Model S to be much different from that when charging a 300 mile battery pack?

Here's an excerpt from the features section of the Tesla website.

Plug In Anywhere

Model S comes standard with everything you need to plug into the most common 240-volt outlet, standard 120-volt wall outlets and public stations. Using a high-amperage 240-volt outlet, Model S can be recharged at the rate of 62 miles range per hour.

This suggests two things to me.

1)The Models S comes with adapters and cabling to plug into the most common 240 volt outlet. (I'm not sure whether Tesla is referring to a NEMA 14-50 outlet, or a J1772 outlet, but it suggests that the new Universal Mobile Connector would be included with the Model S.)

2) At 62 miles range per hour the best charge time to be expected for a 300 mile battery pack would be about 4.8 hours.


I'm not sure whether the 62 miles range per hour requires that you order the optional second on-board charger. If so, does that mean that with just the standard on-board charger and the new Universal Mobile Connector the best we can to is 9.6 hours to fully charge a 300 mile battery pack? Does the size of the on-board charger limit the charging time for the new Model S High Power Wall Connector to 9.6 hours?

Thanks.

Larry

P.S. I didn't read Tommy or cinergi's responses before I posted my questions above. Is that the consenus of opinion that with just a standard on-board 10 kW charger that the charging time for a Model S would be the same with the new Universal Mobile Connector or a NEMA 14-50 outlet?

 

[TEG]

I'm not sure whether the 62 miles range per hour requires that you order the optional second on-board charger. If so, does that mean that with just the standard on-board charger and the new Universal Mobile Connector the best we can to is 9.6 hours to fully charge a 300 mile battery pack? Does the size of the on-board charger limit the charging time for the new Model S High Power Wall Connector to 9.6 hours?

From what I know:
Yes, you would likely need the 2nd charger option to do 62MPH charging ( < 5 hours to fill 300 mile pack )
Yes, I would think that a Model S with only the base (single) charger could only do ~30MPH charging and would take close to 10 hours for a full recharge even if you had the HPC2. Basically if you don't order the 2nd charger option in your Model S, I would think you could get by with the included UMC2, and not bother with the HPC2 since it wouldn't likely help much.

 

[Larry Chanin]

From what I know:
Yes, you would likely need the 2nd charger option to do 62MPH charging ( < 5 hours to fill 300 mile pack )
Yes, I would think that a Model S with only the base (single) charger could only do ~30MPH charging and would take close to 10 hours for a full recharge even if you had the HPC2. Basically if you don't order the 2nd charger option in your Model S, I would think you could get by with the included UMC2, and not bother with the HPC2 since it wouldn't likely help much.

Thanks for the response.

Is the on-board charger bypassed during DC fast charging? In other words, we don't need to upgrade to a 20kW on-board charger to take full advantage of DC fast charging?

Thanks.

Larry

 

[Lloyd]

Thanks for the response.

Is the on-board charger bypassed during DC fast charging? In other words, we don't need to upgrade to a 20kW on-board charger to take full advantage of DC fast charging?

Thanks.

Larry

Yes that is correct. If you wanted no ac charging capability at all you could save 30 lbs and have no onboard charger. (though not an option at this time)

 

[NigelM]

I think this is new:

Elon Musk on Tesla's Unique Charging System

 

[PopSmith]

I think this is new:

Cool video, I haven't seen that one before. :smile:

Both Elon and the cameraman mention it's a combo plug (not the HPC) and. at 0:34, Elon says it's capable of "up to 90 kW". The SAE came out with a "combo" plug as well but it's massive.

 

[dadaleus]

I think this is new:Elon Musk on Tesla's Unique Charging System

I wonder where that "first 90kw super charger installed by the end of this year" will be. I would suggest Grapevine/Lebec, CA between north and south CA before the I5 and 99 split. That's a good pit stop (all the fast food places, Starbucks, etc...) and is a gateway to both central CA (Yosemite, Sequoia, Fresno) and the Bay Area to/from SoCal.

 

[Larry Chanin]

Cool video, I haven't seen that one before. :smile:

Both Elon and the cameraman mention it's a combo plug (not the HPC) and. at 0:34, Elon says it's capable of "up to 90 kW". The SAE came out with a "combo" plug as well but it's massive.

Hi,

Elon corrects the reporter and says that technically the device is a connector, not a charger, and it is capable of up to 20 kW (That is, it is the new High Power Connector). He says the combo adapter part of the HPC is capable of 90 kW and it is also on the yet to be revealed Supercharger.

Larry

 

[Larry Chanin]

I wonder where that "first 90kw super charger installed by the end of this year" will be. I would suggest Grapevine/Lebec, CA between north and south CA before the I5 and 99 split. That's a good pit stop (all the fast food places, Starbucks, etc...) and is a gateway to both central CA (Yosemite, Sequoia, Fresno) and the Bay Area to/from SoCal.

Hi,

Bucking Trends, Tesla Goes It Alone on Plug Design

Mr. Musk said that the first Supercharger would be installed along Interstate 5 at the Harris Ranch in Coalinga, Calif., roughly halfway between Los Angeles and San Francisco, within the next three or four months.

Larry

 

[dadaleus]

Larry, makes sense. Too bad for people going to interior CA, but good for the SoCal to SF Bay Area trip. (hmm... Elon lives in LA and Tesla is in the Bay Area... I suspect that charger will get some use well before the S public release.)

 

[TEG]

I think this is new:

Elon Musk on Tesla's Unique Charging System

Well it seems that Jim got a bit confused by the comment that the plug can {also} provide the "supercharge". He then referred to the HPC2 as the "supercharger". Oh well, no biggie - people will be clear once we see the public "Superchargers" get installed. I wonder if the first time we see one will be when they unveil it at Harris ranch?

I bet the supercharger has an even fatter cable going to the plug end.

 

[Larry Chanin]

Well it seems that Jim got a bit confused by the comment that the plug can {also} provide the "supercharge". He then referred to the HPC2 as the "supercharger". Oh well, no biggie - people will be clear once we see the public "Superchargers" get installed.

Hi,

I think that he cleared things up in the article linked in my previous posting.

Larry

 

[Lloyd]

I believe they said the first one would be at Harris ranch on I-5

 

[Larry Chanin]

I believe they said the first one would be at Harris ranch on I-5

Hi Lloyd,

Yes, refer to posting #52.

Larry

 

[VolkerP]

I bet the supercharger has an even fatter cable going to the plug end.

Sure does.

The HPC 2.0 delivers 20kW at 240V AC max. Tesla stated that they went to the physical limits to make that cable as light as possible. That means, it is not capable of 25kW or 30kW (well at least not for >5min).

The SuperCharger would deliver up to 440V DC. That's a little up from peak voltage of 240V AC (340V[SUB]pp[/SUB]?). Insulation requirements should be slightly higher. The other thing is conductivity and getting rid of the excess heat in the cable. They surely design towards a combination of temperature and surface material that is safe to touch under full load, perhaps < 60°C. Or the cable has thermal management inside, just like the battery pack?

 

[TEG]

The HPC 2.0 delivers 20kW at 240V AC max. Tesla stated that they went to the physical limits to make that cable as light as possible. That means, it is not capable of 25kW or 30kW (well at least not for >5min).

The SuperCharger would deliver up to 440V DC. that's approximately the same peak voltage as 240V AC. Insulation requirements should be fairly the same. The other thing is conductivity and getting rid of the excess heat in the cable. They surely design towards a combination of temperature and surface material that is safe to touch under full load, perhaps < 60°C. Or the cable has thermal management inside, just like the battery pack?

I just look at it as ~200amps for the 90kW 440V Supercharge, vs ~85amps for the 20kW 240V HPC2 charge.
So, I still think the Supercharger cable is going to be a lot fatter than the HPC2 cable just from the metal wire gauge, not even thinking about insulation...

 

[Robert.Boston]

I wonder where that "first 90kw super charger installed by the end of this year" will be. I would suggest Grapevine/Lebec, CA between north and south CA before the I5 and 99 split. That's a good pit stop (all the fast food places, Starbucks, etc...) and is a gateway to both central CA (Yosemite, Sequoia, Fresno) and the Bay Area to/from SoCal.

Bonus points to @dadaleus for guessing this location.