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Question on Mobile Connector and 32A Commando socket
- Thread starter thosirl
- Start date
Glan gluaisne
Active Member
In almost every charge point installation the minimum will have to be 6mm, because of either the voltage drop limitation or because it's in the MIs. Every single charge point I've seen has required 6mm, even for short runs of cable, because it's been tested and approved with a 6mm supply cable at its terminations. Might be OK to use 4mm, but if there's an issue then, as MIs trump the regs, there could well be a warranty problem.
I've been thinking of putting a 32amp IP67 commando socket at the front of my house until they release the Gen3 Wall Connector in the UK (With 48amp single phase charging as the instructions say).
I spoke with someone on the phone yesterday and they confirmed only the type2 and 3pin plug charger is included.
32amp commando adapter needs to be purchased from Blue Adapter - 16A/32A
I am going to be running a 10mm cable under my floor to do this, which would also allow the 48amp gen3 charger if ever released in the UK.
I spoke with someone on the phone yesterday and they confirmed only the type2 and 3pin plug charger is included.
32amp commando adapter needs to be purchased from Blue Adapter - 16A/32A
I am going to be running a 10mm cable under my floor to do this, which would also allow the 48amp gen3 charger if ever released in the UK.
MrBadger
Badger out
I'm not familiar with Gen 3 TWC but do bear in mind that 1/ capabilities will vary across regions so 48A may not be applicable to UK, 2/ charge capabilities vary by car Model. The model 3 is for instance is limited to 32A single phase AC (~7kW) irrespective of the charge point capabilities. If you want more AC, then you need to go 3 phase, 3 x 16A ~11kW for a Model 3.
Glan gluaisne
Active Member
100% agree with the above post from @VanillaAir_UK
Be interesting to see if Tesla produce a mod to allow all three chargers in the Model 3 to be used on a single phase. In theory it could happen, but I doubt that the demand will be there in the UK, for the reasons given above relating to domestic supply capability. Some domestic supplies struggle a bit to be able to safely deliver 32 A for long periods, on top of the normal demand.
For those that don't know, the Model 3 in the UK (and I assume most/all of Europe) has three 16 A AC onboard chargers, that can each accept 230 V and deliver DC to the battery pack. It uses all three of these when charging from a 3 phase AC outlet, so can charge at ~11 kW (3 x 16 A x 230 VAC. When charging from a single phase supply, the car connects two of its chargers in parallel, and doesn't use the third one. This allows it to charge at ~7 kW (2 x 16 A x 230 VAC). Whether the car has the capability internally of being able to connect all three onboard chargers in parallel, to allow charging at ~11 kW from a single phase supply I don't know. It may be that it has this capability, and the present limit is in software. I'll do some digging around and see if I can find the schematic for the Model 3 chargers anywhere, as that should show if the capability to do this is built in already.
Be interesting to see if Tesla produce a mod to allow all three chargers in the Model 3 to be used on a single phase. In theory it could happen, but I doubt that the demand will be there in the UK, for the reasons given above relating to domestic supply capability. Some domestic supplies struggle a bit to be able to safely deliver 32 A for long periods, on top of the normal demand.
For those that don't know, the Model 3 in the UK (and I assume most/all of Europe) has three 16 A AC onboard chargers, that can each accept 230 V and deliver DC to the battery pack. It uses all three of these when charging from a 3 phase AC outlet, so can charge at ~11 kW (3 x 16 A x 230 VAC. When charging from a single phase supply, the car connects two of its chargers in parallel, and doesn't use the third one. This allows it to charge at ~7 kW (2 x 16 A x 230 VAC). Whether the car has the capability internally of being able to connect all three onboard chargers in parallel, to allow charging at ~11 kW from a single phase supply I don't know. It may be that it has this capability, and the present limit is in software. I'll do some digging around and see if I can find the schematic for the Model 3 chargers anywhere, as that should show if the capability to do this is built in already.
Glan gluaisne
Active Member
As above, at the moment the Model 3 has three 16 A chargers onboard, and is limited (at least in the UK/Europe) to only using two of these in parallel on single phase, so 32 A.
Glan gluaisne
Active Member
@DanielXP and I have been having an offline conversation about the chargers in the car, and I managed to dig out some videos of a chap that had done a tear down of the US Model 3 PCS (power conversion system): https://www.youtube.com/c/Ingineerix/videos
There's some detail of the three charger modules on the PCS board shown in a couple of his videos, plus the 12 V DC-DC converter that's on the same board assembly. This is a US spec PCS, so only capable of single phase charging, unlike UK/European Model 3s that have both single phase and 3 phase AC charging. Looking closely at the board, it seems that the same PCB is used for both the US and UK models, but that some of the components aren't populated for the single phase US version. However, what's interesting is that the US version still has all three 16 A charger modules fitted. Given that Tesla have cut costs by removing cheap components like fuses from the single phase US version, it doesn't make sense for them to have left all the rest of the 3 phase power components in place unless they are being used.
My guess is that the US version of the car connects all three 16 A chargers in parallel, to give a single phase AC charging capability of 48 A (3 x 16 A). That makes sense, but begs the question as to whether the UK version can be software switched to connect three, rather than just two, chargers in parallel for single phase charging. Based on the fact that the PCBs are most probably different between the UK and US cars, it may be that this can't be done, but it would be interesting to know for sure.
There's some detail of the three charger modules on the PCS board shown in a couple of his videos, plus the 12 V DC-DC converter that's on the same board assembly. This is a US spec PCS, so only capable of single phase charging, unlike UK/European Model 3s that have both single phase and 3 phase AC charging. Looking closely at the board, it seems that the same PCB is used for both the US and UK models, but that some of the components aren't populated for the single phase US version. However, what's interesting is that the US version still has all three 16 A charger modules fitted. Given that Tesla have cut costs by removing cheap components like fuses from the single phase US version, it doesn't make sense for them to have left all the rest of the 3 phase power components in place unless they are being used.
My guess is that the US version of the car connects all three 16 A chargers in parallel, to give a single phase AC charging capability of 48 A (3 x 16 A). That makes sense, but begs the question as to whether the UK version can be software switched to connect three, rather than just two, chargers in parallel for single phase charging. Based on the fact that the PCBs are most probably different between the UK and US cars, it may be that this can't be done, but it would be interesting to know for sure.
It just needs someone to try it. A Type 2 plug is rated at 63A, upgrade your EVSE EPC & get some beefy cable.
Viridian EV EVSE Protocol Controller Tethered
Viridian EV EVSE Protocol Controller Tethered
Glan gluaisne
Active Member
No need, as we know that the UK Model 3's only connect two of the three 16 A chargers up when charging from single phase. FWIW, I have the updated version of that Viridian protocol controller now, the one that includes DC tolerant RCD protection and open PEN protection, so could very easily just change the available current CP duty cycle (I can already do this via a front panel control).
The car doesn't recognise a CP with a duty cycle higher than about 51.2%. I did a load of tests on this towards the end of last year, when there was a debate here about whether the Model 3 adhered to the protocol defined in IEC61851 (it didn't, until it was updated to comply in July this year).
The new Tesla charge point may use a none standard extension for the car to ask that the single phase is presented all of the 3 phase pins.
Glan gluaisne
Active Member
It most probably could do this, as when I looked at the handshake on the CP when the UMC was connected, it seemed that there is an initial digital data exchange on the CP, before it reverts to the analogue protocol that uses a 1 kHz, variable duty cycle, pulse train for bidirectional signalling. I know that the present Tesla wall connector does the same, as that seems to be how Tesla lock out TWCs from charging non-Tesla vehicles at destination charge points (at one time, Tesla were offering free destination charge point for places like hotels, as long as two thirds of them were Tesla only).
What I'd like to do is get my hands on a complete UK spec PCS unit, to see how it does the L1/L2 connection when charging from a single phase supply. My guess is that it senses the incoming L1, L2 and L3 lines, after the CP handshaking that turns on the charge point contactor, and if all three are available it switches to 3 phase mode. If it only senses voltage on L1, it then connects one of the spare chargers to L1, most probably by just connecting L1 and L2, or, perhaps, L1 and L3, together. It may be that it can connect L1, L2 and L3 together, and then just modulate the charge current down on all three chargers.
The chargers can be modulated right down to a combined charge current of 6 A (or should be able to, if they comply with IEC61851). One snag with using all three chargers, and modulating them down, would be that the efficiency would drop, as the fixed losses in each charger would make up a greater proportion of the total loss. It would make sense, from an efficiency standpoint, to only use the minimum number of chargers for a given requested charge current, perhaps even only using one charger when charging below 16 A, say from the UMC.
It could do, but it seems rather unlikely that they would do it - since it adds cost to the chargepoint for a use-case that's extremely rare (locations where the 3-phase car is sold that have high-current single phase available but no 3-phase).
More interesting is the case where the car receives, un-asked-for, single phase on all three inputs. They need to do something sensible in this case to cope with the significant population of 1st-generation UMCs that are still in the field (and the probably rather smaller population of original wall connectors where this was for a short time a recommended way of wiring them). Note that in this case the UMC is signalling 32A (on the standard analogue protocol) to mean "draw up to a total of 32A across all inputs that are carrying the single phase" as opposed to the "draw up to 32A on each phase" that it normally means. Charitably, you could say that the standard signalling specifies the maximum current on any pin and so Tesla are respecting the standard by not exceeding the specified current on the neutral pin, but more honestly this is a Tesla bodge that they've subsequently walked away from.
That's probably the most plausible arrangement that might get 48A out of a Model 3, but even then I wouldn't put money on it - as there's no use case they've no reason to test it and so quite likely the software artificially limits to 32A.
Note that the car also has to cope with the non-standard wiring recommended in the installation instructions for places with 230V phase-to-phase IT (no neutral) supplies. This put the three phase connections of the supply onto L1, N, L2 of the connector (L3 unused), thus allowing you to at least use 2 out of the three available phases when standard wiring would only allow you to use one phase of what is typically a fairly small three-phase supply. AFAIK this is still recommended practice for those supplies (and is much less of a bodge than the single-phase one, with no ambiguity over the specified current).
If you have only the one EV and not too many of your neighbours have one.
Maybe in a future where we have remotely managed charge rates to optimise the whole district, something a bit over 7kW as a max rate might be helpful to offset the times when it has to be throttled back below 7kW, but at the moment it's not a helpful direction to go in.
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