Questions about toe/camber angles after recent alignment and 2 new tires

[bb95570]

Hi, my CPO 90D had new tires (OEM Goodyear Eagle T1) put on the rear before I purchased it in 2020. Nearly 2 years and 14k mi later, the front tires were wearing very badly and getting thin, so I had them replaced with same tire as the rear, hoping to get some decent miles out of the set with timely rotations. I asked the tire installer to assess the rears and consider rotating them to the front and putting the new tires on the rear. He advised that the rears were showing some uneven wear on the insides, but you "should have your best tires on the front" so he left the rears in place and just installed the new tires on the 2 front wheels. He advised getting the alignment checked to cure the inner wear on the rears.

I had the alignment checked yesterday. The alignment shop said that these vehicles do not have a camber adjustment in the rear, so the inner wear is not fixable. They also generally said that Teslas have the most extreme camber and toe parameters of any vehicle, which they believed was a performance thing. They said the parameters are way outside ones from BMW, Mercedes, Audi etc. I figured the weight of the car was a factor too. They aligned the car within the tolerances, but erring on the side of tire longevity after we discussed the parameters.

The car drives night-and-day better now with the new tires on the front and the alignment-- I'm very happy. However, I'm concerned about the excess wear on the rear inside and the fact it can't be fixed via alignment. I'm thinking it would be a good idea to actually rotate the tires to maximize longevity in the set despite the tire guy's recommendation-- what do you think? Also-- is any of this that either shop said blowing smoke up my butt or are they right on? Thanks!

 

[cpaull]

Try these: Complete Alignment Kits - Tesla X/S Archives » N2itive.me

Fixed the problem on my car, and the company was very responsive to all my questions.

 

[Aggmeister2010]

The N2itive kit linked above is stellar. I have it on my car. You can slightly improve your tire life by getting slightly more neutral toe values in your alignment, but the only way to totally level it out is with a rear camber kit.

 

[bb95570]

Try these: Complete Alignment Kits - Tesla X/S Archives » N2itive.me

Fixed the problem on my car, and the company was very responsive to all my questions.

So, this is one of those apologies where I should have read a bunch of threads before posting, but I really had zero idea what was going on when I posted. I do see the N2itive stuff now and have been reading up, watching videos, looking at alternatives. Thanks.

The N2itive kit linked above is stellar. I have it on my car. You can slightly improve your tire life by getting slightly more neutral toe values in your alignment, but the only way to totally level it out is with a rear camber kit.

So-- I see that N2itive basically says you need their toe *and* camber links to really dial it in correctly. BUT it seems like a lot of people on the forum have just put camber adjusters on the rear and called it good. Thoughts?

And, after reading all this etc. I'm going to answer my question and yes rotate the tires. I'm about to do a 3,000 mi trip and don't want to wear through my inners on the rear in the middle of it... No way I can get these parts installed and a new alignment before I go.

 

[Aggmeister2010]

So, this is one of those apologies where I should have read a bunch of threads before posting, but I really had zero idea what was going on when I posted. I do see the N2itive stuff now and have been reading up, watching videos, looking at alternatives. Thanks.

So-- I see that N2itive basically says you need their toe *and* camber links to really dial it in correctly. BUT it seems like a lot of people on the forum have just put camber adjusters on the rear and called it good. Thoughts?

And, after reading all this etc. I'm going to answer my question and yes rotate the tires. I'm about to do a 3,000 mi trip and don't want to wear through my inners on the rear in the middle of it... No way I can get these parts installed and a new alignment before I go.

You do NOT need both the to and camber kit. I use factory toe links and the N2itive camber arms. Totally fine. Their toe adjusters are more precise than the factory ones, but I could still get the values I wanted with the factory links so I stuck with those.

 

[cpaull]

You do NOT need both the to and camber kit. I use factory toe links and the N2itive camber arms. Totally fine. Their toe adjusters are more precise than the factory ones, but I could still get the values I wanted with the factory links so I stuck with those.

I agree with @Aggmeister2010 ... You do not "need" both toe and camber arms. However not only are the N2ITIVE toe arms more precise, they also have a wider range of adjustment. The stock toe arms have relatively small range of adjustment, so there may be cases where you can't quite get to the toe in values you want. It's also nice to have the fresh bushings since my car is a 2012, so I chose to get the whole kit, and would recommend the same.

 

[bb95570]

You do NOT need both the to and camber kit. I use factory toe links and the N2itive camber arms. Totally fine. Their toe adjusters are more precise than the factory ones, but I could still get the values I wanted with the factory links so I stuck with those.

Is there anything then to their shudder kit? I have felt the shudder in my car, but I understand the principle of not getting on the go fast pedal when the suspension is up high and the driveshaft angles are more extreme. I actually haven't felt shudder for a while, just when car was new to me and I didn't know any better. Also, it's just a 90D, not performance, and while I do like the power I'm not going to the drag strip.

Thanks again to everybody who chimed in.

 

[Aggmeister2010]

Is there anything then to their shudder kit? I have felt the shudder in my car, but I understand the principle of not getting on the go fast pedal when the suspension is up high and the driveshaft angles are more extreme. I actually haven't felt shudder for a while, just when car was new to me and I didn't know any better. Also, it's just a 90D, not performance, and while I do like the power I'm not going to the drag strip.

Thanks again to everybody who chimed in.

IIRC, the shudder is caused by the angle that the half shafts have to be at to connect the the hub and the gearbox.

N2itive is saying that by lowering the car, you decrease that angle and thus eliminate the vibration.

But when you lower the car, your rear camber gets crazy high - so you need the adjustable arms to correct that.

 

[Dannietjoh]

IIRC, the shudder is caused by the angle that the half shafts have to be at to connect the the hub and the gearbox.

N2itive is saying that by lowering the car, you decrease that angle and thus eliminate the vibration.

But when you lower the car, your rear camber gets crazy high - so you need the adjustable arms to correct that.

The shudder is caused by front motor half-shaft wear due to the angle of them, once its there it is there and installing the links won’t remove it. I have had mine replaced under warranty because of the shudder and shortly after installed the links. Just had an alignment and you basically NEED the adjustable rear camber arms when you have the lowering links, as they are over -3 degrees at this point which will eat the tires (and I’m really not that low). I’m looking at the Hardrace rear camber arms as I really do not want to pay n2itive prices and they are sold out (did get their links though as I don’t see a proper alternative). Toe at this point is within spec so may skip those.

 

[Aggmeister2010]

you basically NEED the adjustable rear camber arms when you have the lowering links, as they are over -3 degrees at this point which will eat the tires (and I’m really not that low).

Agreed. I dropped my car about 2 inches (though now I've raised it back to a 1.25" drop), and I was at -4 degrees of camber.

I used the EV Tuning links prior to N2itive, but they failed on me after a few months. "The Cheapskate pays the most" as they say.

 

[Dannietjoh]

If you really want to cheapskate you could just drop the front and raise the rear and be done with it no front halfshaft wear and no rear tire wear. But then again why buy this car in the first place..

 

[bb95570]

My main and really only goal is to improve tire wear/longevity. If the shudder doesn't really happen to me at this point, I'm calling it good. The car has 76k mi on it now. I have 3 months of comprehensive CPO warranty left. I hope it doesn't let loose right after that, that's all. But once warranty is done I'm going to install the N2itive adjustable camber links on the rear, have the car aligned again, and hopefully never look back.

Thanks everybody

 

[Aggmeister2010]

If you really want to cheapskate you could just drop the front and raise the rear and be done with it no front halfshaft wear and no rear tire wear. But then again why buy this car in the first place..

Throw some Cragar's and Hoosier's on the back while you're at it

 

[Dannietjoh]

My main and really only goal is to improve tire wear/longevity. If the shudder doesn't really happen to me at this point, I'm calling it good. The car has 76k mi on it now. I have 3 months of comprehensive CPO warranty left. I hope it doesn't let loose right after that, that's all. But once warranty is done I'm going to install the N2itive adjustable camber links on the rear, have the car aligned again, and hopefully never look back.

Thanks everybody

Always driving in the low setting should also reduce the risk of shudder but increase tire wear.

 

[bb95570]

Always driving in the low setting should also reduce the risk of shudder but increase tire wear.

Right, but based on everything I've read, been told, and come to understand, including esp. N2itive's website and their alignment procedure/spec with their kits, the way to go is to get to the N2itive camber spec (-1.0 camber, .20 toe) with the car in the Low air suspension setting. That will maximize tire life as much as possible. Most of my miles are freeway with car in Low (I have it set to go into low automagically at 50 mph), and I don't do hard acceleration most of the time anymore-- if I do at this point and I can plan on it, I'll put the car in Low first. Thanks again

 

[cleverscreenam]

I'm running -0.4 camber and +0.02 toe all around with my N2itive links, and my RWD P85 car drives comfortably. (it does require slightly more attention and corrections at 75mph, which would be fixed by more like +0.05 toe in the front, but I'm only 40% highway driving so I don't mind.)
I'm very heavy on the throttle, and my rear tires have 35k on them, and still look like more than half their tread life remaining.

Keep in mind the motors pull the tires forward, increasing toe in during acceleration, which can result in slip. I was very adamant during alignment that I wanted rear toe extremely close to zero, not +0.10 or +0.15 listed on N2itive's site
(I first tried +0.15 rear toe and got tire slip around 60% throttle when stopped, but now at +0.02 rear I can go 90% throttle before slipping)

 

[The T-man]

What about front tire wear?

 

[Aggmeister2010]

What about front tire wear?

What about it? Camber, caster and toe are all adjustable in the front. Aftermarket upper strut plates that give you even more camber adjustment are available.

 

[The T-man]

What about it? Camber, caster and toe are all adjustable in the front. Aftermarket upper strut plates that give you even more camber adjustment are available.

on a 2015 dual motor? you sure?

 

[Aggmeister2010]

on a 2015 dual motor? you sure?

Yes.