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R and D vs Hold - Dangerous!

Discussion in 'Model 3: User Interface' started by SOULPEDL, Jun 9, 2018.

  1. SOULPEDL

    SOULPEDL Member

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    This one's dangerous if not addressed. "Hold" is not a very safe indicator of "Still in D or R, ready to launch" There really needs to be a clear indicator that any touch of the pedal will cause the car to move. My wife pointed out the PRND on screen, top/left corner. Seeing it for the first time in 1,200 miles, I chuckled. Yes I chose not to creep, but it does not mean my spinal cord has learned the difference yet. My biggest fear is getting used to Hold all day at lights and such, then parking in the garage and forgetting to hit Park. Imagine reaching in the back seat and pressing the pedal by mistake. I want to keep my house so here's one alternative.

    Recognizing color blindness (which could be an option in setup, and you'd be the first).

    1. Reserve the large letters for "D" and "R", using Red color as well (see color blind data - Magenta better).
    2. Identify "Hold" with either an underline or circle around it, "D" and "R". Do not minimize the fact it's still in "gear".
    3. Identify "P" and "N" using Black color - only. (De-emphasise somehow)

    A cooler way might be to grow/shift the individual letters from a lineup, keeping the large letters centered, plus it more clearly shows a change.

    PRND.png

    Regarding color, I get why you use BLUE for the driver warnings, Magenta might be better. However, you are disadvantaging 90% of the pop who can see red. Again, I do not see your blue pulsing warnings and a "Color Blind" option would be optimal. I am not color blind, so Red please for me. This warning is also very close to the retinal nerve bundle (blind spot). It may actually be challengine to see, but I doubt that's why people take their hands off the wheel.

    Colors.png

    One more thing, related. One time I was parked at the mall and backed out, stopped, then went to put it in D but executed R by mistake. I gave it power, in reverse, and a car was behind me. Close call, happened twice now.

    There's a simple fix on this one as well. There should be no reason to put it in R when it's already in R. The car should ask me "You are already in reverse. Are you sure you want to put it into reverse?" After a while, the user will get it, but unlearning is more difficult than learning. Same goes with D->R but I haven't experienced that yet, I alway park nose first.

    Tesla has done a good job in HMI integration with Machine Control, and the transfer of Control. Please be aware that we have old habits, so you not only need to train us (minimal now), but you also need to un-train us (way more difficult and absent). You could do a Flash simulator for cheap, or just go all out and do it right so people can practice before handing over the keys.

    I am told that these posts are read by Tesla along with member posts on Tesla.com. However, there is no way to get notified or search there, and my comments can get buried on Tesla.com. And my apologies if this was posted somewhere, I did search without any luck.
     
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  2. SDKoala

    SDKoala RWD LR

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    I have creep on, so this is not really an issue for me and haven't had any park-reverse-drive-hold confusion. Opening the car door in hold gives a warning and puts it into park automatically which helps in a parking situation. Due to the lack of tactile feedback, I've learned always to look at the screen to confirm the current gear when switching between park, drive, and reverse. This was born out of necessity because a small percentage of the time, selecting the reverse/drive from park doesn't register. Is hold even possible in reverse? I haven't tried.

    The auto-tilt mirrors help gives another way to know when the car is switching between drive or park and reverse. At least for me, they work dependably now, so I rely on them a lot. I agree that a simple warning chime when trying to put the car into the same gear when stopped with the brake pedal or hold would be a simple thing to implement and would be a helpful warning.
     
  3. SOULPEDL

    SOULPEDL Member

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    @SDKoala, interesting... your setup would help avoid these potential issues. Besides not using creep, I've also disabled the tiling mirrors for reverse. (I might be a bit messed up as I also have a 63' buick with a 2-speed Dynaflow and Reverse is all the way to the right. Never had a problem there, but it also moved in Reverse a bit when the clutches engaged, like any car.) Tactile feedback is critical and there's none on Hold except for a brake pedal nudge that I rarely notice. That's why at least a stronger visual might be in order. I've read that other members openly accept disabling creep as part of the new age. Turns out maybe sticking to the old "creepy" way is safer.

    I really like Hold on a hill. (And yes, Hold works for Reverse as well.) Maybe the car wouldn't actually ram into my house, would it? I saw that flooring it overrides the failsafe during an imminent collision. Yikes! (Guessing if you're on a train track and collision in front is a better choice.)

    Has anyone else seen this potential, or come close? Specifically touching the pedal after forgetting to put it into Park (haven't done yet), or backing toward a car in the parking lot after pulling out (twice now)? They both seem likely.
     
  4. Twiglett

    Twiglett Single pedal driver

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    None issue.
    Simple rule - only P is park, anything else causes some form of movement. No problem.
    Exactly the same as in ICE world.
    Only dangerous if you forget everything you already know about cars or never read the manual.
     
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  5. ShockOnT

    ShockOnT ⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️

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    I’ve forgotten to put in park, but it goes in automatically when you get out.
    Also I never accidentally push the accelerator.

    As for automatically braking, I’ve noticed that if I try to accelerate fast out of garage the car senses the door frame and limits acceleration.
     
  6. brkaus

    brkaus Active Member

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    I generally avoid accelerating quickly. Feather the pedal.
     
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  7. Saghost

    Saghost Well-Known Member

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    A number of folks have had trouble backing up because they like leaning over their shoulder to look back instead of mirrors - and if the car detects a lack of weight in the driver's seat at low speeds, it shifts into park and applies the parking brake. That should resolve your "reaching into the back seat" case unless you're very unlucky.
     
  8. SOULPEDL

    SOULPEDL Member

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    A lot to do with habits. I was just noting something that could happen. The probability exists therefore it will happen to someone... not intentionally of course. Who intentionally has an accident unless intended?

    Disengaging creep teaches the user that it will stop even when the foot comes off the pedal and behaves just as thought they hit park. Sit there for a while (with foot on the brake, for a while) adjusting the screen, for a while, and someone will forget to hit P. Then the couple makes out at lover's point, or starts fishing for cigarettes. No, maybe not you, maybe never you. Great.

    I went back to creep mode myself. Now I always know if it's "loaded." And now it's like ICE.
     
  9. SDKoala

    SDKoala RWD LR

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    There are people who disable creep because it makes it behave more like a manual transmission where there's no movement if not in gear. There are others who disable it because it's not a part of the "pure" EV driving experience. I keep mine on for practical reasons. I'm used to driving an automatic and that creep has always been a part of normal driving for me. Also, I have a relatively tight garage opening and I find it much easier to control speed by letting up on the brake instead of trusting myself to tap on the accelerator. It's also a more natural feeling to let up on the brake pedal when backing out of a parking space instead of having to put constant pressure on the accelerator, especially if looking over my shoulder and learning backwards.
     
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  10. CapnOMatic

    CapnOMatic Member

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    I'm still playing between the two. I have noticed that the car coasts a bit more, of course, with creep on making me use the brakes more. Without creep, I have found that it takes some getting used to when parallel parking etc.. I like the safety of creep, however, when trying to slowly approach anything, because I don't have to switch my foot to stop.
     
  11. SOULPEDL

    SOULPEDL Member

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    You can trust the pedal, it does have excellent control with a perfect exponential taper. Braking method (creep on) will avoid forgetting to put into park.

    The point of my post was that they almost hide the fact that it's in gear (Hold - greyed out). It should be bold.

    Use of Color is another issue, separate but related. I'm not convinced Tesla understands color blind and HMI completely, or someone made poor decisions and never actually owned one. Some kid will eventually launch this car off a cliff... by accident, not on purpose. Just sayin'. There are better ways.
     
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  12. SomeJoe7777

    SomeJoe7777 Marginally-Known Member

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    I agree with the large letter for the current drive selection (or bold, centered, or some combination of the three). But I disagree with red -- that's a problem/danger color, not appropriate for an informational indicator.

    I also agree with a color-blind option, although very little of the UI has color dependencies that L/M-cone deficient individuals would find confusion with. Some of the traffic indication colors might be the only real concern. The only major color used for indication purposes is blue (for TACC, AP, and navigation path), but only S-cone deficient individuals cannot see that, and those people are very rare.
     
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  13. SOULPEDL

    SOULPEDL Member

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    @SomeJoe7777, good input. I agree, red might be too harsh. They use red for the Collision warning, but only Blue gradual pulsing for "Keep your hands on the Wheel" which I think is more on the danger side (for now anyway). Hadn't thought about other colors in the UI. Could be a "golden" opportunity... and another first for any UI that I've come across (although I've never actually clicked on the Accessibility option in Windows).

    Reminds me of when my Dad was getting his sight back from POW days. We had to tell him what color the lights were or he'd get mad at us. "What's the color!" He never did tell the CNIB. And he was technically blind at one time, but corrected with mega vitamins back before Naturopaths even existed. Got me thinking, maybe color blind people just don't drive? Wow, there's a new market for Driver Assist or FSD.
     
  14. SomeJoe7777

    SomeJoe7777 Marginally-Known Member

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    Most individuals with color-deficient vision can still drive, using the traffic signal positions as indicators rather than the color. Vertical traffic signals have the stop indicator on top, horizontal traffic signals have the stop indicator on the left (at least in the US).

    More difficulty is identifying the signals at night, especially from a distance. Without being able to see the traffic signal housing, the position of the lit signal cannot be acertained. L-cone deficient individuals (medically, a protanope, protan, or protanomalous individual) can sometimes tell the difference from a distance at night, as the red signal is dimmer than the green. However, M-cone deficient individuals (medically, a deutanope, deutan, or deutanomalous individual) generally cannot, as the luminance looks the same between red and green, and both look yellow.

    By the way, I'm not color-deficient myself, but I did a research paper on it way back when, and wrote some computer software that can detect the particular kind of color vision deficiency that someone has. It accurately identifies all different types.
     
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  15. okashira

    okashira Member

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    After reading your post I just had an idea that could solve some problems.
    Put an option for "creep only in reverse."


     
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  16. trm2

    trm2 Member

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    I am color blind, please, DO NOT USE MAGENTA as it is close to invisible.
     
  17. Gwgan

    Gwgan Almost a wagon

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    A row of letters is a holdover from mechanical shift levers. How about big direction arrows where color is not so important.
     
  18. SDKoala

    SDKoala RWD LR

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    Related, there should be an option to disable hold in reverse. I didn't even know hold in reverse was possible until OP pointed it out and I tried it. The only time I ever use hold is at stop lights or drive-thrus. I know if I'm stopped and my foot isn't on the brake the next movement will always be forward. Having the ability to hold in reverse just confuses that and I'm having a hard time seeing the utility in that.
     
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  19. mtndrew1

    mtndrew1 Member

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    If the car is in hold (or Drive or Reverse) and you lift your butt off the seat, particularly after taking off your seatbelt, the car engages Park automatically.

    I learned this the abrupt way when moving my car 20 feet after washing it.
     
  20. SOULPEDL

    SOULPEDL Member

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    Arrows... brilliant! I'm a visual guy by trade and I didn't think of that. So an Arrow on Hold could be just tilted or circled. Nice.

    Get this, I'm back to no creep now. The auto-park feature with creep takes about 5 ft of travel, but it's immediate without creep. My habits are really messed up. Joys of unlearning.

    FYI, I was told by a Tesla shop guy that 2 of 3 things need to be maintained or it will go into Park. Butt in Seat, Seat Belt latched, and Door Closed. I did not know that.
     
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