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Radar deleted on all new Model Y and Model 3. Is FSD worth it?

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It feels like these forums are full of conspicuously anti-Tesla trolls these days.
Hmmm. Perhaps. But part of that anti-Tesla sentiment may be coming from Tesla owners who see some of the shine coming off the apple. Tired of Elon's BS. Tired of waiting years for FSD. Frustrated they let Tesla hold their $2k-$10k for years on a promise instead of investing it themselves. Tired of quality fails. As Tesla becomes more mainstream, the general populace won't be as tolerant as the early adopters. So we should probably expect a rise in the number of "I'm calling BS on this" posts, and deservedly so.

Back to the original question, is FSD worth it? Not in my opinion. But many others disagree - when I bought my Y, I was amazed at the number of people on the order tracker spreadsheet who had purchased FSD. But I couldn't reasonably justify it given the complexity of the challenge and the history of non-delivery. I suspect it will be ready when I buy my next electric vehicle in another 10 years.

Does removal of radar help or hurt the cause? Likely there's no one in this group of armchair engineers qualified to say, myself included (except maybe that aerospace guy!). But it is fun to speculate about! It would seem to make sense that more sensors = more info about your surroundings = better decision making, but perhaps the challenges around integrating all of that data are an issue.

MobileEye may suggest we drive with only our eyes, but that's a pretty "shortsighted" suggestion. The next time you're driving down the road, just stop to think about what your brain is doing. It's almost inconceivable. Analyzing multiple sensory inputs thousands of times a second, including 360 degrees of visual data (with the assistance of mirrors and head turning), endless audio cues (car horns, sirens, children laughing, tires on the road, wind gusts, etc), physical tactile sensations and more. All of which your brain incorporates into its analysis of the current situation, along with it's knowledge base of driving experience, other driver behaviors, local conditions, vehicle or terrain specific quirks, physics, math and flight characteristics of swallows both African and European. All while listening to the radio. It's astounding that your brain can perform in a microsecond what takes robotocists decades to imitate poorly.

Now that you've considered that, ask yourself this: how much money am I willing to lend Elon while he figures out how to replicate my brain, and how long with that take? And in that time, how much could I otherwise earn with that money? Is FSD worth it?
 
If they make it work as well as what they had, or better, then I won't have any issue. Dropping the automatic emergency braking is a big problem for me. So hopefully by the time my car arrives, they'll have it worked out. Meanwhile the people who got the currently crippled cars, I feel for you. Hopefully Tesla will make it right on something other than Elon Time.
Latest video shows AEB, FCW and LDW (Land Departure Avoidance) are all present in the radar-less vehicles. The only feature limited right now is Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance (plus AP speed limit).
 
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I disagree. CR has a lot of influence. Google when CR knocked down the M3 because of braking issues earlier and removed it from the recommended list. I have a few links bleow. This definitely got Elon's attention and didn't take too long to find a fix. The radar issue and CR's downgrade is getting a lot of media coverage.

Tesla Model 3 Review Falls Short of Consumer Reports ...https://www.consumerreports.org › hybrids-evs › tesla-...

Consumer Reports recommends Tesla's Model 3 after braking ...https://www.reuters.com › article › us-tesla-model-3 › con...

Tesla Model 3 Gets CR Recommendation After Braking ...

https://www.consumerreports.org › car-safety › tesla-m...
 
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Here is what CR said on their website.

"Because of the change, Consumer Reports no longer lists the Model 3 as a Top Pick, and IIHS plans to remove the Model 3’s Top Safety Pick+ designation. NHTSA’s website has already been updated to reflect the availability of these safety features.

Tesla did not respond to CR’s request for comment.

“It is extremely rare for an automaker to remove safety features from a vehicle during a production run, even temporarily, but this isn’t the first time that Tesla has done this,” says Jake Fisher, senior director of CR’s Auto Test Center. In 2016, some Tesla Model X vehicles were sold without active AEB, a problem that took six months for Tesla to rectifythrough a software update. And in 2018, some owners lost AEB for more than a day after a software update."

If you have CR access you can find all the text here. It is a good read.

 
Hey, I'm not saying this is right or wrong. Unlike a lot of folks here, apparently, I really have no clue on what's better. All I can assume is that Tesla, based on years of research and piles of real-world data, knows what they are doing here. The decision to remove the radar from the suite of tools isn't some snap decision to save money or reduce cost. Based on statements over the years, it's because it's part of their strategy for FSD. That's it. We won't know whether it's right or wrong for some time.

Umm...it gives EVERY appearance of being a "snap decision" dude. Are you kidding? Read the reporting on this.

They shipped 10,000s of vehicles -- if not more! -- with no radar units and are contacting the customers who ordered them *after the fact* to get them to sign statements acknowledging the removal of radar and also specifically acknowledging that some advertised driver assistance and safety features they understood would be in the vehicles are not, in fact, present. I'd instantly cancel my order if I were in that group.

Moreover, the NHSTA removed the Model 3 and Y certifications for the now-missing features and Consumer Reports removed their "top pick" ratings for these vehicles, as stated in an earlier post.

To make it worse, Tesla's statement says the missing features will be restored with software updates "in the weeks ahead." Uh huh...riiiight.

In my view, it's almost certain that Tesla had a problem getting enough radar units for some reason (e.g., Pandemic computer chip shortages? Incompetent negotiating with suppliers? Bad planning? All of the above?) and/or decided to cut costs even more to make their margins and Elon made a snap decision to just claim "Tesla Vision" is ready and he doesn't need any radars anymore.

This is the exact OPPOSITE direction of all other car makers, who know that additional sensors is always safer, and with radar and LIDAR prices plummeting, are adding MORE of them to their vehicles for improved driver assistance features.

If future software updates stop using the radar in my *current* Model Y, I'm selling it. My wife's Volvo XC40 All-Electric Recharge is far superior than the Model Y in every way except range based on our first few weeks of owning it. It's close to a *Model X* level of comfort and features for the same price as a Model Y.
 
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Consumer reports have lost credibility over the years. But there sure are plenty of armchair quarterbacks who never built a driver assist system, let alone have access to Tesla’s vast AI pipeline project. Exciting stuff.
Ummm....legions of actual automotive experts with years of experience are commenting on this in the media as an almost inexplicable move, including some of the very posts with links to articles in this (and other) threads about this topic.

The people speaking out against this decision include not only Consumer Reports testers, but MIT scientists who have worked with automotive industry, and others. It's kind of hard to call the guy who helped design and test driver assistance and safety features (for decades) as an "armchair quarterback," dude.

Also, what's the basis for your assertion that Consumer Reports has "lost credibility"? Got a source, link, or polling data that indicates that? If so, can you point us to it?

By the way, I have 25+ years of experience working on projects that directly involve computer vision (CV) techniques at a major, well-known aerospace industry company. Removing additional sources of range, speed, and angle data...particularly when the costs of automotive-grade radar and LIDAR are plummeting...is idiotic. The very fact that *every* other automaker is moving in the exact opposite direction based on their own testing and analysis...and have higher safety test ratings than Tesla...should tell you something.

But sure, the tons of fanbois who are out here defending every ridiculous thing Tesla does for years now will keep doing it.
 
So is your "well-known aerospace industry company" totally going to crush SpaceX? ;)

I'm still waiting for American old space to rally... They've been doing this for decades before SpaceX existed.
I'm still waiting for European old space to rally... They've been doing this for decades before SpaceX existed.
I'm still waiting for Russian old space to rally... They've been doing this for decades before SpaceX existed.
I'm still waiting for Chinese old space to rally... They've been doing this for decades before SpaceX existed.

Ummm....legions of actual automotive experts with years of experience are commenting on this in the media as an almost inexplicable move, including some of the very posts with links to articles in this (and other) threads about this topic.

The people speaking out against this decision include not only Consumer Reports testers, but MIT scientists who have worked with automotive industry, and others. It's kind of hard to call the guy who helped design and test driver assistance and safety features (for decades) as an "armchair quarterback," dude.

Also, what's the basis for your assertion that Consumer Reports has "lost credibility"? Got a source, link, or polling data that indicates that? If so, can you point us to it?

By the way, I have 25+ years of experience working on projects that directly involve computer vision (CV) techniques at a major, well-known aerospace industry company. Removing additional sources of range, speed, and angle data...particularly when the costs of automotive-grade radar and LIDAR are plummeting...is idiotic. The very fact that *every* other automaker is moving in the exact opposite direction based on their own testing and analysis...and have higher safety test ratings than Tesla...should tell you something.

But sure, the tons of fanbois who are out here defending every ridiculous thing Tesla does for years now will keep doing it.
 
This was rushed, no doubt, to make the Q2 numbers, otherwise they would have had the cars sitting around like other manufacturers waiting for parts. Also, if it was so awesome, radar would not be needed on the other models (S/X) or in other countries that are getting the 3/Y. The challenge is for new buyers to be okay with this, as uncertainty still remains. A lot of folks shelled out money for FSD and are still waiting.
 
Latest video shows AEB, FCW and LDW (Land Departure Avoidance) are all present in the radar-less vehicles. The only feature limited right now is Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance (plus AP speed limit).
Looks like AP following distance is restricted to 3. Combine that with the 75mph cap and these cars will be annoying on long trips. Starting to rethink my MYP reservation.
 
IIHS has downgraded it too. No longer a top safety pick on their site. Not only Tesla fanbois buy Teslas. So CR, IIHS, NHTSA, etc. have an impact on consumers whether you like it or not. While the value proposition was enough for me to buy one at the moment, that calculus may be changing. Not to mention with the IIHS saying it is less, likely insurance rates will change.

I am an ardent motorsport enthusiast. I love cars, motorcycles, jetski, etc. Tesla offered a lot of what I was looking for in a pretty safe package and some advanced features. I sold a car that had very good safety systems and planned to replace it with a Tesla. Now with the downgrade in capability, I am leaning more and more toward not getting the car until I am not losing any safety functionality over the previous version.

So where is the upgrade to the system for Tesla Vision to help make up for the loss of radar? Do we have new cameras? More of them? Enhanced systems to keep them clean? What is being done to reduce fogging? Any better in bright, direct light? How about a lot of dust or rain?

If this had been rolled out better, it would smack less of I eff'd up and don't have the parts we need so let's spin the crap out of it as a benefit and along with the future vision. Maybe the fanbois are buying it, but I am not. The MY LR may be the best option assuming they don't, or can't, kill the functionality to all the radar units. So I am hedging my bet with an order for one of those.

If they don't work this out soon, I can't see how it wouldn't affect the value of the nerfed radar-less models. Maybe a year from now it will all be great. What about all the accidents that might happen as a result of the diminished capability in the meantime? Do you really want to be a beta test of a safety system when the previous version, while great, at least was functional? Yes, I've had an occasional phantom brake occurrence on my other car with AEB but I've totally avoided significant accidents in poor visibility. Not so sure the Tesla Vision in its current form would have worked. A big risk to take with my family in the car.
 
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Personally think Consumer Reports still has credibility for the average buyer. Car/Tesla enthusiasts tend to not like them, but their perspective is still valuable to the average buyer.

I gave up on Consumer Reports back in the 1990's. When they gave better ratings to the Mitsubishi Eclipse than they gave to the Eagle Talon (same car, built in the same factory, by the same workers in Normal Illinois) and did the same thing with the Mitsubishi 3000GT and the Dodge Stealth (Same car, same factory, built by the same workers in Japan) it let anyone paying attention know that they allow their biases to sway their ratings. I have no cause to think they have changed for the better over the years.

I do agree that their ratings are credible to the average buyer and thus getting a good rating is important for sales.

Keith
 
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IIHS has downgraded it too. No longer a top safety pick on their site. Not only Tesla fanbois buy Teslas. So CR, IIHS, NHTSA, etc. have an impact on consumers whether you like it or not. While the value proposition was enough for me to buy one at the moment, that calculus may be changing. Not to mention with the IIHS saying it is less, likely insurance rates will change.

I am an ardent motorsport enthusiast. I love cars, motorcycles, jetski, etc. Tesla offered a lot of what I was looking for in a pretty safe package and some advanced features. I sold a car that had very good safety systems and planned to replace it with a Tesla. Now with the downgrade in capability, I am leaning more and more toward not getting the car until I am not losing any safety functionality over the previous version.

So where is the upgrade to the system for Tesla Vision to help make up for the loss of radar? Do we have new cameras? More of them? Enhanced systems to keep them clean? What is being done to reduce fogging? Any better in bright, direct light? How about a lot of dust or rain?

If this had been rolled out better, it would smack less of I eff'd up and don't have the parts we need so let's spin the crap out of it as a benefit and along with the future vision. Maybe the fanbois are buying it, but I am not. The MY LR may be the best option assuming they don't, or can't, kill the functionality to all the radar units. So I am hedging my bet with an order for one of those.

If they don't work this out soon, I can't see how it wouldn't affect the value of the nerfed radar-less models. Maybe a year from now it will all be great. What about all the accidents that might happen as a result of the diminished capability in the meantime? Do you really want to be a beta test of a safety system when the previous version, while great, at least was functional? Yes, I've had an occasional phantom brake occurrence on my other car with AEB but I've totally avoided significant accidents in poor visibility. Not so sure the Tesla Vision in its current form would have worked. A big risk to take with my family in the car.

I agree with you but I'm still going to stick with my order. As I mentioned in an earlier post it's not like Tesla's were feature packed before they removed the radar. They really are barebones cars when it comes down to it.

I'm not very happy at all with the idea of removing features for no good reason but if features were the only thing I cared about I would never have considered a Tesla in the first place.

The deciding factor for me is the fact that they are still the best electric cars on the market aside from the lack of creature comforts and now active safety features. Ideally I would want something like a Lexus with a Tesla drivetrain but obviously that doesn't exist.

Also I think it's a bit dramatic to say that removing the radar will kill people. Many cheaper and older cars have no active or passive safety features at all. Obviously having no safety features is worse than having them but the cars themselves are still class leading when it comes to actual crashes. Also the active safety features in many cars are mediocre at best. I had a Toyota Corolla with radar based BSM and TSS 2.0 which includes most of the same features as Autopilot and I can tell you that it barely works. With TSS 2.0 you need perfect lines painted on the road and it will very rarely detect a stopped vehicle ahead of you. Also TSS 2.0 will never be upgraded on existing cars presumably Tesla Vision will.
 
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While it might a bit dramatic, and I hope nobody does perish as a result of the removal or reduced ability of safety features, I guarantee if someone does meet an untimely end in a Tesla, as a result of this, it will be blasted all over the new like AP fatalities. Tesla has made a big deal of its safety ratings. Safety sells.

That is a lesson I learned from my childhood. Supposedly unsafe cars can be taken off the market with some bad press. Anyone remember Ralph Nader and his torpedoing the Chevy Corvair with his book "Unsafe at Any Speed?"

In my personal situation, without automatic emergency braking, I have no doubt the crashes it prevented, kept us from having very serious injuries. I've been on the other end where if a vehicle had something like AEB, the inattentive tow truck driver (towing a car) wouldn't have plowed into my car at 60 mph faster than I was going. I had massive internal injuries, dislocated arms from the impact before the car crumpled into my internal organs, and lost a year of my life to recovery. So I am all in favor of these types of safety features.
 
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