Radar deleted on all new Model Y and Model 3. Is FSD worth it?

[Rattletrap]

Just took delivery yesterday, and AP seems to work pretty good, not perfect but pretty good. I hate that when driving on a strait road it constantly nags me to put my hands on the wheel (apply torque to wheel) and I have been told by a co-worker that has had his Model 3 for about a year that you can avoid phantom braking in situations where you SEE what is going to freak out the system by putting light pressure on the accelerator and then releasing it after the "danger" is passed.

Keith

The alert to "jiggle" the steering wheel at speed is asinine and actually more unsafe than just trusting the driver to watch the road and be ready to take control. Luckily, you can buy a small magnetic weight on Alibaba which clips onto the left side of the wheel and eliminates the nag without interfering with normal driving. I leave mine in place at all times even though I don't use any autopilot features on my Vision 3 right now (still waiting until they reduce phantom braking and increase the max speed). It is obvious that Tesla themselves don't trust the Vision only systems yet or they wouldn't purposely set them to panic brake worse than the radar cars at slower speeds. Materials shortages are getting so bad that I saw rumors they're removing radars from the model S next. I would be livid if I paid $130k for a 200 MPH capable Plaid that is electronically limited to 165 with autosteer limited to 80 (and randomly jamming brakes out of nowhere). Hopefully supply chain issues will smooth out by the time the Cybertruck releases in a few years and they'll either recall and re-install all these missing radars or remove the nerf and show us that their lawyers actually trust Vision AP.

 

[YieldFarmer]

The alert to "jiggle" the steering wheel at speed is asinine and actually more unsafe than just trusting the driver to watch the road and be ready to take control. Luckily, you can buy a small magnetic weight on Alibaba which clips onto the left side of the wheel and eliminates the nag without interfering with normal driving. I leave mine in place at all times even though I don't use any autopilot features on my Vision 3 right now (still waiting until they reduce phantom braking and increase the max speed). It is obvious that Tesla themselves don't trust the Vision only systems yet or they wouldn't purposely set them to panic brake worse than the radar cars at slower speeds. Materials shortages are getting so bad that I saw rumors they're removing radars from the model S next. I would be livid if I paid $130k for a 200 MPH capable Plaid that is electronically limited to 165 with autosteer limited to 80 (and randomly jamming brakes out of nowhere). Hopefully supply chain issues will smooth out by the time the Cybertruck releases in a few years and they'll either recall and re-install all these missing radars or remove the nerf and show us that their lawyers actually trust Vision AP.

If you leave it on after you leave the car, the car will figure it out and it wont work anymore.

Always take it off when not using it. Tesla is looking for this.

I agree removing radar sucks though, I was angry when they delivered my car with no radar. I retrofit a radar onto the car, and I swear autopilot is so so so much smoother.

I might disable the radar again and make some comparison videos if people are interested

 

[egoodro85]

If you leave it on after you leave the car, the car will figure it out and it wont work anymore.

Always take it off when not using it. Tesla is looking for this.

I agree removing radar sucks though, I was angry when they delivered my car with no radar. I retrofit a radar onto the car, and I swear autopilot is so so so much smoother.

I might disable the radar again and make some comparison videos if people are interested

Please explain how you retrofit radar

 

[WhiteWi]

I thought it should be activated on software level even if you install radar.

 

[jeremymc7]

If you leave it on after you leave the car, the car will figure it out and it wont work anymore.

Always take it off when not using it. Tesla is looking for this.

This hasn't been my experience. Been on for over a year without going inactive. But there are various kinds, different weights, and attach in different locations.

 

[apacheguy]

Radar can see through fog/rain/snow. Cameras, not so much. What’s Tesla’s plan for safely navigating a car during inclement weather?

 

[Stealth.Pilot]

If you leave it on after you leave the car, the car will figure it out and it wont work anymore.

Always take it off when not using it. Tesla is looking for this.

I agree removing radar sucks though, I was angry when they delivered my car with no radar. I retrofit a radar onto the car, and I swear autopilot is so so so much smoother.

I might disable the radar again and make some comparison videos if people are interested

how did you retrofit radar and what was cost?

am interested in comparison videos.

 

[YieldFarmer]

Please explain how you retrofit radar

You need root access to retrofit a radar; though in theory any service center has the access level needed to do this. The diagnostic access you buy on toolbox.Tesla.com as a regular person is insufficient.

Rough guide:

First you plug a radar in.
Next you need to update your gateway config ID 110 from “2” which is NONE to “0” which is CONTInental radar.
Then pull the penthouse and 12v power, wait 2mins, reapply power.
Perfom a service-redeploy using the updated or SERVICE-REDEPLOY in toolbox/odin
Run RADC plant mode so the Radar learns your VIN
Run radar plate alignment
Run radar calibration; drive for 5 mins after starting.
SERVICE-redeploy again for good measure

I intend to publish more over time as I can

 

[rjpjnk]

Radar can see through fog/rain/snow. Cameras, not so much. What’s Tesla’s plan for safely navigating a car during inclement weather?

Pretty sure the radar has no effect on the car’s ability to see lines for auto steer. That’s all optical.

 

[YieldFarmer]

Radar can see through fog/rain/snow. Cameras, not so much. What’s Tesla’s plan for safely navigating a car during inclement weather?

I get “autopilot speed limited due to weather” errors far less frequently now compared to the 2.5 months I was on vision only.

Pretty sure the radar has no effect on the car’s ability to see lines for auto steer. That’s all optical.

True, but radar can see the car in front of you and follow

 

[avs007]

Radar can see through fog/rain/snow. Cameras, not so much. What’s Tesla’s plan for safely navigating a car during inclement weather?

Not that it matters, but automotive radar doesn't work too well with snow... On every car I have with radar, when it lightly snows, I'll get a "Radar Obstructed" warning, and various systems will disable.

 

[jeremymc7]

Radar can see through fog/rain/snow. Cameras, not so much. What’s Tesla’s plan for safely navigating a car during inclement weather?

The answer I keep hearing from other members is, you shouldn’t be driving in inclement weather. Either manually or with FSD.

Doesn’t work for me either.

 

[DanDi58]

You need root access to retrofit a radar; though in theory any service center has the access level needed to do this. The diagnostic access you buy on toolbox.Tesla.com as a regular person is insufficient.

Rough guide:

First you plug a radar in.
Next you need to update your gateway config ID 110 from “2” which is NONE to “0” which is CONTInental radar.
Then pull the penthouse and 12v power, wait 2mins, reapply power.
Perfom a service-redeploy using the updated or SERVICE-REDEPLOY in toolbox/odin
Run RADC plant mode so the Radar learns your VIN
Run radar plate alignment
Run radar calibration; drive for 5 mins after starting.
SERVICE-redeploy again for good measure

I intend to publish more over time as I can

Seems like a lot of work considering that the functionality is going to go away when everyone gets the update removing it from the equation.

 

[YieldFarmer]

Seems like a lot of work considering that the functionality is going to go away when everyone gets the update removing it from the equation.

Definitely a lot of work to get root on latest firmware lol. But I wanted root anyway, it just the kind of person I am. Retrofitting a radar was just another challenge to add on top

Personally, I doubt they will turn off radar in our cars any time soon. Doing so would mean limiting AP to 80 and following distance to 2; or drastic improvements in the vision stack. And quite frankly, I do not trust the vision only as much as its speed/distance estimates are less accurate and take more time to process.

Additionally, see this photo. I think the ability to track the speed of the car which is 2 vehicles in front of you is an amazing safety feature which would be impossible to reproduce using vision only.

 

[CyberGus]

Makes me wonder how I survived driving all these years with just my eyes

 

[DanDi58]

Definitely a lot of work to get root on latest firmware lol. But I wanted root anyway, it just the kind of person I am. Retrofitting a radar was just another challenge to add on top

Personally, I doubt they will turn off radar in our cars any time soon. Doing so would mean limiting AP to 80 and following distance to 2; or drastic improvements in the vision stack. And quite frankly, I do not trust the vision only as much as its speed/distance estimates are less accurate and take more time to process.

Additionally, see this photo. I think the ability to track the speed of the car which is 2 vehicles in front of you is an amazing safety feature which would be impossible to reproduce using vision only.

View attachment 704635

I think they will try and merge the 2 SW streams sooner rather than later. They have been trying to get to vision all along, and getting data from the entire M3/Y fleet will move the neural along along more quickly. And they can't have both full vision and the radar enabled.

 

[Rattletrap]

If you leave it on after you leave the car, the car will figure it out and it wont work anymore.

Always take it off when not using it. Tesla is looking for this.

I agree removing radar sucks though, I was angry when they delivered my car with no radar. I retrofit a radar onto the car, and I swear autopilot is so so so much smoother.

I might disable the radar again and make some comparison videos if people are interested

Interesting point but I don't think that is correct re: the weight, at least not yet. I've left it clipped on for 2 months straight now without issue. I did make a long road trip across the state a few weeks ago and used AP... I was still able to leave my hands off the wheel for hours at a time. It did nag me to hold the wheel a couple times through long, gradual left turns in the highway because the weight doesn't have enough moment of force at lower angles.

 

[Tnuc3lon]

Of course it's not worth it. That's why the take rate is on the single digits. No compelling reason to buy.

 

[YieldFarmer]

Interesting point but I don't think that is correct re: the weight, at least not yet. I've left it clipped on for 2 months straight now without issue. I did make a long road trip across the state a few weeks ago and used AP... I was still able to leave my hands off the wheel for hours at a time. It did nag me to hold the wheel a couple times through long, gradual left turns in the highway because the weight doesn't have enough moment of force at lower angles.

I found after a while it acted as if the weight was not there at all. Green also noted that there are detections in place for this. Not sure, glad to hear it doesn't nag you though!

I think they will try and merge the 2 SW streams sooner rather than later. They have been trying to get to vision all along, and getting data from the entire M3/Y fleet will move the neural along along more quickly. And they can't have both full vision and the radar enabled.

Well, it is already merged. This morning I disabled the use of the radar to take some videos using the vision-only stack. No firmware update was necessary, though the vision-only stack in the current radar build (2021.24.4) is a bit dated, as it still has the 3-car following limit distance when not using radar.

Regardless, my point is that the fusion is already there

I will do the same route with radar and share some comparison videos. Though I don't know if I'm the best comparison case since I enabled some extra visualization stuff on the cluster

 

[rjpjnk]

I found after a while it acted as if the weight was not there at all. Green also noted that there are detections in place for this. Not sure, glad to hear it doesn't nag you though!


Well, it is already merged. This morning I disabled the use of the radar to take some videos using the vision-only stack. No firmware update was necessary, though the vision-only stack in the current radar build (2021.24.4) is a bit dated, as it still has the 3-car following limit distance when not using radar.

Regardless, my point is that the fusion is already there

I will do the same route with radar and share some comparison videos. Though I don't know if I'm the best comparison case since I enabled some extra visualization stuff on the cluster

View attachment 704773

This is very cool. Must be great to have root access. Is it difficult to achieve or just a matter of getting a password?

In any event, it seems to me that the two SW lines .3 and .4 are still being developed separately. Hopefully they will be able to merge one day so all cars get the latest new features. It does sound like some functionality has been merged already as you mention. Which SW release has the most up to date vision stack?