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Range better than Bolt, optional or base?

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by mrkymarc, Mar 24, 2017.

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  1. mrkymarc

    mrkymarc Member

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    Elon Musk on Twitter

    Elon implies that range will be higher than bolt, but the wording of the question makes it unclear whether it will be higher on the base model, or if you'll need the larger battery option...
     
  2. Yggdrasill

    Yggdrasill Active Member

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    If the base is 55 kWh like expected, then it should have around 245 miles of range, 7 miles more than the Bolt. But yeah, it may be less.
     
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  3. postpast

    postpast Member

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    It probably depends on the type of driving. Base Model 3 will be more aerodynamic but heavier and with a smaller battery. So, the base 3 will probably get better mileage on higher-speed freeways, while the Bolt will likely have better mileage around town or in city driving. The Bolt will probably have an edge in extreme weather also. I don't know how the EPA takes these factors into account for stated range.
     
  4. ikjadoon

    ikjadoon Member

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    If we're talking EPA rating, Tesla needs to have longer range in the base Model 3. It's impossible to imagine Elon would give that advantage (even by a single mile) to Chevy.

    It's just a superlative they need to have. I know the Model 3 is $1000 cheaper, but that can't be an excuse. The Bolt has just a decent coefficient of drag at .308, far less aerodynamic the Model 3's expected 0.21 (which even beats out the Model S' 0.24). I mean, even the Toyota Sienna minivan has a better drag coefficient (0.30) than the Chevy Bolt!
     
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  5. shrspeedblade

    shrspeedblade Member

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    That seems to be an awful stretch to get nearly 4.5 miles/kwh on the EPA rating. I would think after today that keeping expectations reined in to reasonable levels would be a little easier.

    I think only the 75 will exceed the Bolt's rated range, and the 55 will be around 220. Which is completely fine especially with the supercharging network.

    EPA rated range is turning into for electrics what rated horsepower over about 400 is for ICE vehicles, good for making your junk feel bigger but not much benefit in the real world.
     
  6. McRat

    McRat Active Member

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    Edmunds long term test so far indicates the Bolt beats the EPA rating in the real world but it's February, and they did a lot of mountain driving.

    Monthly Update for February 2017 - 2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV Long-Term Road Test

    However, the 2018 Bolt that the Model 3 will compete with has unknown range at this point.

    Note though, that the Model 3 does not have to exceed the Bolt's range to be a great car. Anything over 200 miles in the real world is great.
     
  7. hingisfan

    hingisfan hingisfan_Mark_V

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    Guessing they up it a bit and they go 60/75 for battery choices.
     
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  8. Model 3

    Model 3 Active Member

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    Remember back in the days of old, before the Model 3 unveiling, when it was just promised as "at least 200 miles realistic range". Back then Elon said something like that people does not get 200 realistic miles out of a 200 miles rating (I believe he talked about EPA rating), they need at least 20% more. So I do believe that they really is trying to get to 240 miles EPA range on the base model. But I can not say if they have reached that goal...
     
  9. montreid

    montreid Member

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    215 miles. That would be realistic for the 55kwh battery still given the historical performance of Model S and X in the 3.0-3.5 mi/kWH range and the lighter Model 3. But to see the 55-60kwH batter get 240? that's going to be impressive strides for Tesla.

    More likely 75kwH will have this. I would venture that they will deliver a 75 battery and cut to 60 to simplify the build line. Offer an unlock for early adopters and then see if people complain about the lower range or just eliminate that after year 1 and raise the price ---sound familiar?
     
  10. alseTrick

    alseTrick Active Member

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    I can't see how they could afford to do that.
     
  11. montreid

    montreid Member

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    They did it with the S model. The only reason is to maintain the $35,000 illusion of the base model. Most will probably option up the 75 just to get ahead of line and range, but keeping the production line streamlined sounds like taking a major priority.
     
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  12. acentre

    acentre Member

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    I agree. If the Bolt has a 60 kw pack so will the model 3. How could it be less than a Chevy?
     
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  13. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

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    Generally the smaller batteries have the same case and fewer modules.
    Battery construction is automated. So it's no big deal to have fewer modules.

    The recent S/X60s are a special case where they wanted temporarily to offer a lower price to stimulate demand, but they didn't want to build 60s because that would have made the cars actually worse and likely added other costs related to certification.

    Even at $100/kWh 20kWh would be $2k and they aren't there yet. Tesla's not going to be sinking that much margin on the Model 3.
     
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  14. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Way too much.
    Elon Musk said a minimum of 215 miles, which was probably his way of saying 215 miles. :p
    But there will be a big question about how fast it'll Supercharge.

    Add 1/3 capacity and round down a bit for extra weight and maybe 280 miles for the 75.
     
  15. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Active Member

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    Yeah, 215 miles is more than acceptable in comparison to the Bolt. I think the base Model 3 will have more than 215, but with the Supercharger network...and Tesla not leveraging a PHEV for journey's outside its range...I see no reason the Model 3 needs to surpass the Bolt's range.

    I don't see many people giving up the faster performance, sportier aesthetics, and access to nationwide charging, simply because it'll go 23 miles less on a single charge.
     
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  16. diamond.g

    diamond.g Member

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    It will definitely be a talking point of nay sayers though.
     
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  17. shrspeedblade

    shrspeedblade Member

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    The other companies need something to point to, as their EV offerings are inferior in so many other ways.

    I got to look all around and sit in a Bolt, could have driven it too but I didn't feel like "running the numbers" at my dealership for a car that undoubtedly drives very much like my Volt2 and appearance-wise is far less pleasant (more interior room, though).
     
  18. techmaven

    techmaven Active Member

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    The issue is combined EPA range or highway only? It might be that the base Model 3 has lower combined EPA range, which has a lot of city driving incorporated in the testing and better highway range as in the kind of driving most people do for Supercharger jumps.

    The highway portion of the EPA testing still has a lot of start and stops and averages only 48 mph, but it is the closest approximate. Here's some ratings:

    Hyundai Ioniq BEV: 122
    Chevy Bolt EV: 110
    BMW i3 BEV (94 Ah): 106
    Model S 75D: 105
    Nissan Leaf: 101
    Model S 75: 100

    A 10% improvement on the highway mileage MPGe over the 75 kWh Model S would mean even efficiency with the Bolt. At that point, the question is how much useable capacity is available, and we don't know that yet either.

    It will be interesting to see what the efficiency numbers would be at 70 and 75 mph.
     
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  19. BrokerDon

    BrokerDon Member

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    Even if the Bolt and Model 3 have identical range, the lack of any reliable DC Fast Charging network for the Bolt limits them to commuter cars ONLY. After owning our Model S P85D for 18 months and always using Tesla Superchargers for our trips greater than our 227 mile 90% range we'd NEVER consider a Bolt for our next EV due to this serious limitation. That and our horrible experiences with Chevrolet warranty service on GM's most expensive car (Corvette Z06) including a Lemon Law buyback.
     
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  20. ssrajputev

    ssrajputev Member

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    Exactly. The base M3 will have a 55 giving 220 mi (about 20% more efficient than MS) and the optional 75 will give ~300 mi of range. JB Straubel/Tesla have said in the past that the base will have less than a 60 kWh battery. We know after Friday that the 75 will be the max option. JB/Tesla has also said before the average battery pack will be...wait for it, 65, which is between 55 and 75.

    I don't understand this argument that the base M3 needs to match the Bolt's range. GM had to put a 60 in the Bolt, because that's the only battery size there is. There also isn't an expansive charging network and Bolt drivers will have to rely on the CCS/SAE combo stations from Chargepoint, EVGO, Blink, etc. The base M3 will have access to Tesla's expansive and growing supercharger network from day 1. Most supercharging locations are spaced 120-150 mi apart anyway. You will be able to go somewhere farther and quicker in a base M3 vs. a Bolt anyways from day 1 as well.
     
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