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Range & charge modes, clarification needed

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by ebbrey, Jan 1, 2013.

  1. ebbrey

    ebbrey Member

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    #1 ebbrey, Jan 1, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
    Range & charge modes, clarification needed

    So i intend to drive about 160 miles a coupple of days every week. Other days about 125 miles.

    Im wondering about the different charge modes and reading the efficiency blog post vs experiences on this forum gets me a bit confused.

    So the advertised max range on a brand new battery, if flat road and doing 50 mph is 300 miles / 480 km, but this is only if "max range charged?" Which probably isn't good for the battery long term.

    So the big Q can i get 160 miles long term out of this 85kw battery?

    Lets say the standard charge is 80%? And after 500 charge cycles the expected battery capacity is at approx 70%(?) and should flat out.. This leaves about 47kw per standard charge long term / 60kw range charged.
    From the pictures of winter driving (which would be the worst conditions here) i have seen usage between 450-500 wh/mile

    So worst case scenario standard charge is 47000/500= 90 miles ?
    worst case scenario max range charge is 60000/500= 120 miles ?

    Way off?


    Hope you guys can clarify :)

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  2. steve841

    steve841 Active Member

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    People are reporting that cold weather severely impacts range .... not quite the issue here in Florida, USA. I dont think you can get a real world answer to that just yet. Definitely not down to the mile with charge cycles factored in.

    But, the 85kw pack should be your pick no matter what.
     
  3. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    You'll definitely want the 85 kWh pack, I agree.

    A standard charge is a 90% charge and a 'range' charge gets you up to 100%. The ranges Tesla advertises are always range charges. How fast do you normally drive (average speed) during these long 160 mile days?
     
  4. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    Keep in mind that a "cycle" is from 0% SoC to 100%

    If you charge from 30% to 90% it doesn't count as a full cycle.

    Still, ~250km out of the 85kWh pack should be doable in Norway. Speeds aren't that high there, right?
     
  5. ebbrey

    ebbrey Member

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    Thx for your reply

    I have a reservation and going for the 85kw pack for sure.

    95% of the 160 miles are highway road. with 100km/hour speed limit and traffic usually moves in 105 km/h which should be about 65 mph. But maybe average 60

    Edit: okay so standard charge is for 10-90% of capacity 80% total, meaning only if you are screwed on the range you need to change to range mode to get the last 10%. Since charging in range mode to 100% every night will reduce battery life quicker

    - - - Updated - - -

    Good news, so most days i dont need full cycle during the winter.

    Mostly 80km/h and 100km/h where i drive, and im a heavy user of cruise control, since driving this much with a normal car costs shitload of cash here
     
  6. ebbrey

    ebbrey Member

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    So assuming standard charge the car display will show 240 miles / 380 km range. But according to tesla
    winter driving takes away upto 15% meaning 200 miles / 320 km. at standard charge which should be 68kw over
    200 miles / 320 km (adjusted according to efficiency blog) = 340 wh/mile or 212 wh/km.

    But tests so far is in the 450-500 region (wh/mile). I found a testdrive from norway too that had around
    310 wh/km wich is 500 wh/mile.


    So without adjusting for battery wear, winter driving on standard charge is 135 miles or 220 km. And when
    "empty" you still have 10% to gain (16 miles or 27 km) from switching to range mode while driving.

    So for my 160 mile requirement to work, under standard charge, i cant be using more than 425 wh/mile or 265 wh/km
    and thats without any battery degradation.
     
  7. wycolo

    wycolo Active Member

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    > I intend to drive about 160 miles a couple of days every week. [ebbrey]

    Recent production S shows 271 miles @ *maximum* charge (the new EPA rating). On your first 160 mile trip you could do a Range Charge, but stop the charging (just as you are leaving home) at about half way up from a Standard Charge. This will give you extra safety margin so you can enjoy your first trip and drive normally. Next trip you might try it on just a Standard Charge assuming conditions are the same.

    I do round trips of 180 miles with the Roadster using this "halfway to full" method driving in Range Mode. But not yet under true winter conditions. Will do a full Range Charge when I make this trip in the next few days, and pick a sunny day to reduce heating KWHs.

    My trip home in the S was: 271 - 225 miles (=46), but with heat @68*F, headlights, and battling up an unplowed 1100ft driveway I arrived home with "16 miles" showing. During trip temp was down to 18*F in spots but mostly was in the 30s. Also I kept speed in the low 50s (mph) as much as possible.

    What temperatures do you expect to encounter in Norway?
    --
     
  8. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

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    The 450-500 wh/mile numbers I have seen have come from people startting with a cold car/battery. The car will use a lot of energy over a short time period to heat the battery up for normal regen/power output. Over a long drive the number will go down after the battery has heated up. But you can avoid all that by pre-heating the car before you leave.

    Also the standard charge numbers are from 90% to 0%, no extra reserve on the bottom like the Roadster. I think you'll easily achieve at least 300km on a standard mode charge and thus allowing for 15% battery degradation. When the battery is down to 85% or less you might have to do a range charge on the coldest days. Range charge should allow for 30% battery degradation.

    Disregard number from test drives as those include frequent full throttle accelerations and a lot of start/stop.
     
  9. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    That was how the Roadster handled it. The Model S doesn't have any 'reserve' at the bottom. A standard charge is 0-90% so 0 means you can't drive anymore in the Model S.
     
  10. ebbrey

    ebbrey Member

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    Ahh okay :)

    I thought it was 80% since 240 is 80% of 300. I guess its 90% out of the EPA rating of 265 then making it 240 anyway but on 90%.

    They should change the sale sites that says [email protected]/h as this semes to be well, not true

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    So when you are empty you cant drive, thats fine. But empty = brick? or any failsafe?

    Edit: Found this "Model S will not allow its battery to fall below about 5 percent charge. At that point the car can still sit for many months. Of course you can drive a Model S to 0 percent charge, but even in that circumstance, if you plug it in within 30 days, the battery will recover normally,"

    Meaning they always save some juice, even tho you spend the range, its not totally over.. As long as it doesnt SUPPRISE stop on like 10 miles left for saving the battery im happy.
     
  11. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    You are right. There is a small reserve but it is hidden to protect the battery pack if you do go to zero.
     
  12. ebbrey

    ebbrey Member

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    Now, to update my numbers to your helpful inputs:

    240 mile range / 380 km - 15% calculated degradation - 15% cold weather conditions = 173 miles / 275 km.

    Meets my needs.
     
  13. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    #13 Doug_G, Jan 1, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
    I've done 300 km (188 miles) in winter conditions three times now, averaging 90 kph, arriving with around 50 rated km reserve (roughly 40 projected). That's starting with a Range charge and using the Range driving mode (lowers heating power). That means in winter conditions (-12C) with heating I'm getting about 80% of the rated range.

    (I've done this same trip in the Roadster in freezing temperatures, but that requires cabin heat to be off altogether... even with the seat heater on full you get chilled out after a couple of hours! Model S is far more comfortable!)

    So going 256 km (160 miles) should be no problem with an 85 kWh pack, as long as you keep your speed at around 90 kph (55 mph). You should keep an eye on the projected range, at least on the first few trips, to help you resist the temptation to go faster. I would not recommend the 60 kWh pack for your situation.
     
  14. ebbrey

    ebbrey Member

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    #14 ebbrey, Jan 1, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
    Thats some good numbers, its great to hear from current users!

    the (lowers heating power) part, is this the cabin heating power and efficiency?

    Edit: read in another thread that range driving mode limits the power usage for the ac, what is your take on this mode? Would you like range driving mode to limit the power of the car aswell?
     
  15. Brian H

    Brian H Banned

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    Numerous drivers have gone below 0 miles, and though they had to endure bad language from the touchscreen, they made it ~5 miles without problem, at low speed.
     
  16. NigelM

    NigelM Recovering Member

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    Not sure where you get that from. Very poor advice to suggest that anyone should try it.
     
  17. patp

    patp Member

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    I would love that. Actually the Roadster has a range mode that limit the power of the car. I think range mode should be more something like "Eco mode". The term range is confusing vs range charging mode
     

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