Range depletion due to low temperature

[Big_nobody]

Hi guys,

I was wondering what to expect in winter time as far as the range depletion due to a lower temperature is concerned. Is there a chart available somewhere showing the function of the range against the outside temperature for Model 3?
What would be the average drop in the range I should expect in winter?

Thanks!

 

[jjrandorin]

there isnt any chart, and it depends on how cold it actually gets in "middle of nowhere", which you have as your location, but 30% is a decent number to expect for cold areas. Rain also effects it.

 

[KenC]

Here are two charts from my Model 3. Don't look at the absolute numbers because they depend upon your driving style, but look at the %age change based upon temp:

As you can see, efficiency goes down with temp. My efficiency dropped 20% from 70F to 30F, so about 5% every 10F.

And here you can see the seasonality, with 130 efficiency during peak summer, and bottoming about 95 in deep winter. So, about a 27% drop at the worst for me, on average. I know others have done far worse, with 40% drops. Of course, it all depends upon how you drive, did you swap to less efficient snow tires, is there snow on the ground, what temps, etc.

 

[Rocky_H]

And it also depends on how hot you are trying to keep the inside of the cabin. All kinds of heating are drawing energy from that same battery source, so it's heat + miles and not just miles. In pretty bad cold, like clearly below freezing point, and to about single digit degrees, I would say about 30% decrease can be expected.

 

[akenham]

The above post is awesome, thanks KenC

I've little experience so far 1800 miles in, but here in Suffolk UK the nighttime temperatures have dropped from 10 degC to 5degC over the last few days and I've seen my standard 40 mile country-lane drive (AWD+) go from a solid 280Wh/mile to 314Wh or so (+15%) with a cold soaked battery and just 10-15 mins of preconditioning attached to the wall charger before departure.

I tried going out on Sunday without preconditioning as it was midday so warm right (uhuh) and really noticed the regen reduction compared to my normal routine - lasted for quite a few miles.

I'm going to try preconditioning a little longer in cooler weather - if it gets super cold I'll consider aligning the charge end with departure for those few days (I get 1/3 price electricity 00:30-04:30 so it's a trade off between burning a few more expensive kW preconditioning vs. doing more of my charging on the more expensive kW).

 

[akenham]

And it also depends on how hot you are trying to keep the inside of the cabin. All kinds of heating are drawing energy from that same battery source, so it's heat + miles and not just miles. In pretty bad cold, like clearly below freezing point, and to about single digit degrees, I would say about 30% decrease can be expected.

Good point - I was interested to read elsewhere that each seat heater is 160W so if you're running a lot of them it can stack up even though you might be saving on cabin heaters.

It'll be interesting to see how much real-world difference the mooted heat pump makes - kind of mildly sad to have (possibly) missed getting it by a month or two, but c'est la vie - I live in mild UK temperatures and anyhow tomorrow's build is always better

 

[Rocky_H]

Good point - I was interested to read elsewhere that each seat heater is 160W so if you're running a lot of them it can stack up even though you might be saving on cabin heaters.

No, not really. The more you can rely on seat heaters, it is FAR less energy usage. Cabin heater can pull up to almost 6 kW of power. Even four seat heaters going at 160W would only be 0.64 kW--not even close. And it's not just the rate of the energy draw. Putting the heat onto your skin puts the warmth into you and makes you warmer more effectively. With heating the cabin air, that is tons of extra wasted volume of space that is getting heated, which isn't affecting you very directly, plus it is up against the glass windows, which are constantly losing that heat through conduction to the cold air outside.

It'll be interesting to see how much real-world difference the mooted heat pump makes - kind of mildly sad to have (possibly) missed getting it by a month or two, but c'est la vie - I live in mild UK temperatures and anyhow tomorrow's build is always better

In one of Bjorn Nyland's travel videos, he came across someone who was showing him his old electric Toyota RAV4 from like 2002 or whatever. It had a heat pump only. The guy was saying it was nice for efficiency, but was slow and just could not make it very warm if it was really cold outside.

 

[CertLive]

I found setting the air to recirculate on long trips makes a huge difference hot or cold. The cabin is not air tight but it gives the aircon less work to do.

 

[akenham]

I found setting the air to recirculate on long trips makes a huge difference hot or cold. The cabin is not air tight but it gives the aircon less work to do.

Did you get window fogging problems ? I've always thought UK's humidity would make that tricky.

(i.e. I lazily haven't tried it myself. I'll give it a whirl if it ever stops raining)

 

[Rocky_H]

I found setting the air to recirculate on long trips makes a huge difference hot or cold. The cabin is not air tight but it gives the aircon less work to do.

Did you get window fogging problems ? I've always thought UK's humidity would make that tricky.

That is the main reason why I find the full AUTO setting useless in Teslas. They seem to have the recirculate setting in the opposite (wrong) setting all year round for both heating and cooling. In winter, AUTO does the recirculate to try to use less energy. But that obviously accumulates your own moist breath inside the car and fogs up on all the cold windows in a few minutes. So it really needs to be set for outside air to keep venting that moisture to avoid fogging. This summer problem, may be an older Model S problem. But with the air conditioning, it barely blows and won't get very cold if it's set on outside air, which is what AUTO always does. If you switch to recirculate, the air flow doubles, and it will cool effectively.

 

[SSedan]

Distance driven for each cabin heating event matters.
Those of us who average 5-10mile trips will see a greater efficiency hit than someone living in the same place with a 20mile trip because the heat runs hardest the first few minutes.

Parked outside near Green Bay my January energy use is pretty much double the spring/fall consumption but that is because of my short commute 7miles each way and sometimes a 2 mile lunch trip.

 

[Big_nobody]

Here are two charts from my Model 3. Don't look at the absolute numbers because they depend upon your driving style, but look at the %age change based upon temp:

As you can see, efficiency goes down with temp. My efficiency dropped 20% from 70F to 30F, so about 5% every 10F.
View attachment 598169

And here you can see the seasonality, with 130 efficiency during peak summer, and bottoming about 95 in deep winter. So, about a 27% drop at the worst for me, on average. I know others have done far worse, with 40% drops. Of course, it all depends upon how you drive, did you swap to less efficient snow tires, is there snow on the ground, what temps, etc.
View attachment 598170

Thank you for posting this. This is exactly what I was looking for.

 

[F14Scott]

I'm glad people are thinking about this. Here in Houston, it's only mid-October and nighttime temperature are already dipping into the low 80s.

 

[BabyYeggie]

Wow, most of you live in really mild climates. Here's my range chart. The minimum is -35 because the lower limit of the most available sensors is -40, and it's never gone above 35 here.

 

[SSedan]

If I leave in sub-zero F temps without preheating I have seen my P85 go over 800wh/m 5 mile average, fair weather consumption on my commute might be 270wh/m.

When I said I can double for January 535 or so on the 30mile average when you are preheating on shore power in the morning and afternoon sun is reducing heating need leaving work.

 

[Gasaraki]

Did you get window fogging problems ? I've always thought UK's humidity would make that tricky.

(i.e. I lazily haven't tried it myself. I'll give it a whirl if it ever stops raining)

Just hit the AC button. AC is not just for cooling.

 

[Big_nobody]

Here is some interesting analysis on this topic:
Tesla Model 3: Here's How The Range Changes In Hot And Cold Weather

 

[EAV1]

I already asked this in another thread and got a good response, but would like to present the example here as well to gather more information:

On Sunday I drove my 2020 SR+ (less than three weeks old) on the highway:

- Total trip 158km, around 18km in the city and the rest on the highway
- Battery at 91% when departing
- Battery at 29% when arriving at Supercharger
- Outside temperature was around 10C, maybe slightly less when departing
- Speed on the highway was a pretty constant 123km/h
- Car was "prepared" for departure as per the manual
- No significant changes in elevation

If my calculations are correct, the total range with this consumption would be around 260km. But this is only theoretical, since I'm not going to risk it and drive even to 10% with so few Superchargers available in Finland. I have during the last week made six similar trips and all of them have had range loss very close to this. If the situation is this bad at around 10C, will I even be able to drive reasonable distances when it drops to -10C or even less?

 

[KenC]

I already asked this in another thread and got a good response, but would like to present the example here as well to gather more information:

On Sunday I drove my 2020 SR+ (less than three weeks old) on the highway:

- Total trip 158km, around 18km in the city and the rest on the highway
- Battery at 91% when departing
- Battery at 29% when arriving at Supercharger
- Outside temperature was around 10C, maybe slightly less when departing
- Speed on the highway was a pretty constant 123km/h
- Car was "prepared" for departure as per the manual
- No significant changes in elevation

If my calculations are correct, the total range with this consumption would be around 260km. But this is only theoretical, since I'm not going to risk it and drive even to 10% with so few Superchargers available in Finland. I have during the last week made six similar trips and all of them have had range loss very close to this. If the situation is this bad at around 10C, will I even be able to drive reasonable distances when it drops to -10C or even less?

While the temp when leaving is 10C, what was the temp for most of the night? Because, the temp of the battery slowly changes based upon the ambient. By morning, when you are ready to go, the battery is likely colder than the current ambient. I see this all the time, when I leave in the morning at 60F, the regen dots appear, because the temps were much colder for much of the night. Even if you prep the car, unless you prep it for a good while, the battery may still show that it's colder with regen dots.

Also, try ABRP and put in as much detail as possible. It uses real-world data to give you your estimates. Also, calibrate ABRP for you vehicle, to find out what your specific car's efficiency is at highway speeds. Here in the US, it calibrates at 65mph, not sure what it uses for metric, 105? Through using ABRP, you can do sensitivity testing, to better estimate what affects your car's range. The more you know, the more confidence you'll gain in what trips your car can and can't do.

You don't only need to use a supercharger, any DC fast charger will work, or were you using that term generically? It's a shame that there aren't more stations, if that's the case. I couldn't buy a Tesla where I live until they put more than 2 superchargers in my state, a few years ago.

 

[SSedan]

Use navigation it will coach you to slow down if you are at risk of not making it to destination.
Preheating while plugged in helps mitigate the initial high consumption