Calling your service center will be a complete 100% waste of time, both yours and theirs. They will simply tell you "its within specifications, the warranty covers capacity of 70% at 8 years or 100k miles (SR+) / 8 Years 125k miles (LR / P), and close your request.
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Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health
- Thread starter KK_RedM3
- Start date
Calling your service center will be a complete 100% waste of time, both yours and theirs. They will simply tell you "its within specifications, the warranty covers capacity of 70% at 8 years or 100k miles (SR+) / 8 Years 125k miles (LR / P), and close your request.
techzelle
Member
Purpose of poll is to establish an equivalent to the ICE refueling level.
With ICE, at what tank level do you typically think about filling in gas?
Many people are comfortable driving ICE to E - 1/8 tank (0% - 12.5%), because gas is readily available and refueling is quick.
For Tesla, there are much less available charging options, and it's way slower to "refuel".
Unplanned long drives are no problem with ICE that can easily refuel to 100% at any time. With a slow charging Tesla, there is an incentive to keep charge levels higher.
Additionally, unlike ICE, Tesla features drop off: no sentry mode at 20%, performance decreases with lower charge levels.
Thus, I think the Tesla equivalent is 20% - 30%.
The other data point is that ICE is refueled to 100%, but Tesla is typically charged to 80% - 90%.
Finally the point:
Cars are listed for sale with an EPA range that is based on the fuel level going from 100% to 0%.
This can be a useful when comparing ICE to ICE, but not ICE to Tesla.
A better comparison is "practical EPA range", what range you would expect to get with typical refueling levels.
With ICE, practical EPA range = 87.5% - 100% of EPA range. (from 1/8 tank to E)
With Tesla, practical EPA range = 50% - 70% of EPA range. (from 80% -> 30% to 90% -> 20%)
Yes, this is mitigated for some who can charge daily at home or work, some people charge > 90%, drive lower than 20%, and EPA range is a somewhat phony number, etc, but...
The point is, practically speaking, the EPA range is a much phonier number for Tesla than it is for ICE.
Your mileage may vary.
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Tesla 3 SR+ = EPA range 269 miles = practical EPA range: 135-188 miles.
Tesla 3 Perf = EPA range 315 miles = practical EPA range: 158-221 miles
Tesla 3 LR = EPA range 353 miles = practical EPA range: 177-247 miles.
What is your practical EPA range?
With ICE, at what tank level do you typically think about filling in gas?
Many people are comfortable driving ICE to E - 1/8 tank (0% - 12.5%), because gas is readily available and refueling is quick.
For Tesla, there are much less available charging options, and it's way slower to "refuel".
Unplanned long drives are no problem with ICE that can easily refuel to 100% at any time. With a slow charging Tesla, there is an incentive to keep charge levels higher.
Additionally, unlike ICE, Tesla features drop off: no sentry mode at 20%, performance decreases with lower charge levels.
Thus, I think the Tesla equivalent is 20% - 30%.
The other data point is that ICE is refueled to 100%, but Tesla is typically charged to 80% - 90%.
Finally the point:
Cars are listed for sale with an EPA range that is based on the fuel level going from 100% to 0%.
This can be a useful when comparing ICE to ICE, but not ICE to Tesla.
A better comparison is "practical EPA range", what range you would expect to get with typical refueling levels.
With ICE, practical EPA range = 87.5% - 100% of EPA range. (from 1/8 tank to E)
With Tesla, practical EPA range = 50% - 70% of EPA range. (from 80% -> 30% to 90% -> 20%)
Yes, this is mitigated for some who can charge daily at home or work, some people charge > 90%, drive lower than 20%, and EPA range is a somewhat phony number, etc, but...
The point is, practically speaking, the EPA range is a much phonier number for Tesla than it is for ICE.
Your mileage may vary.
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Tesla 3 SR+ = EPA range 269 miles = practical EPA range: 135-188 miles.
Tesla 3 Perf = EPA range 315 miles = practical EPA range: 158-221 miles
Tesla 3 LR = EPA range 353 miles = practical EPA range: 177-247 miles.
What is your practical EPA range?
Thanks for clarifying that this post is actually an epa range discussion, so I will move it to the thread that covers that.
Yes, but EV refueling strategy isn't the same as ICE refueling strategy, so the idea of equivalence makes little practical sense.
In an EV, typically 90+% of the time you're recharging at home, so you don't wait until 1/8th of a tank to refuel, you just refuel every night to a full tank.
For trips, whether you drive an EV or an ICE, your "average" human need to stop every couple hrs to pee, get a coffee and stretch their legs. The EV strategy is to time it so that after a couple hours of driving, you have low SOC, so that supercharging is fast. Then you charge for about 15mins on a v2 or v3 supercharger to get 50% or more SOC. That 50% will give you another 2hrs of driving until the next supercharger, rinse and repeat. In other words, the goal is to fit supercharging within your normal driving routine, and thus have no time penalty at all, compared to ICE.
At least, that's how it works for me. So, the critical EPA figure is 50% of EPA-rated highway range. I want that amount to be roughly what 2hrs of fast highway driving to be. In other words, about 150miles. I can supercharge from 15% to 65% and get 120 to 150 miles of range, in 15mins or less, the time it takes me to hit the head, get a coffee and walk back to the car. Ideal.
Notice, your own "practical" EPA range lists the first figure as ~50% of the EPA rated range.
Good to know! I will just put on percent and chill out.
techzelle
Member
probably should have been moved to the sub forum
Model 3: Battery & Charging
rather than "merging" with the master thread on range loss, which seems to have deleted the poll and make it difficult to know which reply was related to it.
Last edited:
KeithT
My Model 1
My SR+ was delivered in December 2019. I was pretty sure that the "range' was quoted at that time as 250mi = 400km.
In the app, on the Charging screen, you can shift the "charge to" vertical line over to far right and you will briefly see a number displayed. I didn't do this when I first got the car but the first time I did do it was when I went on our first long trip and the number was 388km. I didn't take too much notice at the time but over the last 16 months the number reduced to 366km and just now shows 349km.
I think this is the estimated EPA range, i.e. if I fully charged you'd get this distance on average. I was wondering if this was "normal" or whether I had a duff bvehicle but then I saw this article in CleanTechnica How to Recalibrate Your Tesla Battery to Regain Range
The thrust of the article is that the BMS can be reset to show the "true" range. Interesting read. I haven't followed their process yet and thought I would canvas views on this Forum.
Thanks
Keith
In the app, on the Charging screen, you can shift the "charge to" vertical line over to far right and you will briefly see a number displayed. I didn't do this when I first got the car but the first time I did do it was when I went on our first long trip and the number was 388km. I didn't take too much notice at the time but over the last 16 months the number reduced to 366km and just now shows 349km.
I think this is the estimated EPA range, i.e. if I fully charged you'd get this distance on average. I was wondering if this was "normal" or whether I had a duff bvehicle but then I saw this article in CleanTechnica How to Recalibrate Your Tesla Battery to Regain Range
The thrust of the article is that the BMS can be reset to show the "true" range. Interesting read. I haven't followed their process yet and thought I would canvas views on this Forum.
Thanks
Keith
I took delivery of a Model 3 SR+ about two weeks ago.
Love the car so far. But this weekend I took it for our first roadtrip and the range seemed way way low. I'm wondering if you can give me some feedback or advice if this is normal
Left North Saanich BC to Campbell River bc
283km trip
The car had 360km of reported range when we started.
Navigation told us we would have to stop to supercharger in Victoria (20km away) which we did even though we should have had~80km extra range. Topped up+50km
We continued on the trip and part way the estimated range started dropping far faster than the distance traveled. We were on the highway doing 90-110km/h of normal driving. Range was dropping maybe 50% more than actual distance traveled.
Navigation told us we weren't going to make it to our destination and had to supercharge in Nanaimo. Which we did and added +150km of range.
We arrived in Campbell River with 130km of range left.
So we started with 360
Added 50 in Victoria
Added 150 in Nanaimo
For total of 560km range
We traveled 283km
And had 130km left (probably less real world)
For a total of 413
So we "lost" 147km which is 37% of the advertised range of the car.
Based on the 360km range we started with we shouldn't have needed to charge at all. But we had to charge twice.
Do we have a bad battery pack? Is the range prediction software broken?
Love the car so far. But this weekend I took it for our first roadtrip and the range seemed way way low. I'm wondering if you can give me some feedback or advice if this is normal
Left North Saanich BC to Campbell River bc
283km trip
The car had 360km of reported range when we started.
Navigation told us we would have to stop to supercharger in Victoria (20km away) which we did even though we should have had~80km extra range. Topped up+50km
We continued on the trip and part way the estimated range started dropping far faster than the distance traveled. We were on the highway doing 90-110km/h of normal driving. Range was dropping maybe 50% more than actual distance traveled.
Navigation told us we weren't going to make it to our destination and had to supercharge in Nanaimo. Which we did and added +150km of range.
We arrived in Campbell River with 130km of range left.
So we started with 360
Added 50 in Victoria
Added 150 in Nanaimo
For total of 560km range
We traveled 283km
And had 130km left (probably less real world)
For a total of 413
So we "lost" 147km which is 37% of the advertised range of the car.
Based on the 360km range we started with we shouldn't have needed to charge at all. But we had to charge twice.
Do we have a bad battery pack? Is the range prediction software broken?
Range does not take into effect any changes in elevation, weather, etc. If you mean the little number by the battery, that will almost never roll off at 1:1. I doubt you have a bad battery pack (very unlikely). The number next to the battery does not predict range. its based on a static energy usage. The car can tell you what your current trip looks like in the energy screens, but that wont show next to the green battery icon.
Considering the recommended battery charging is 90% to 10% (lose 20%) and rated driving range is 55 MPH (lose 15-20%, your 37% "loss" is in the ballpark of normal from all the info I have read and experienced.
Try using ABRP, for trip planning, not the car nav. And, it'll tell you where you're not matching the plan, and it'll tell you your car's efficiency and your estimated degradation.
A Better Routeplanner
I put in as much of your trip as I could. The trip was 288km, took 80%SOC, no charging, at speed limit, using 141Wh/km, 40.6kWh.
Start with 360km, add nothing, drive 288km, finish with 20%, or 72km, which is spot-on.
What you haven't posted is the ambient temperature. Besides speed, temp is the next important thing, AND, what temp you keep the car at.
After two very mild Michigan winters and 22,577 miles total, I use 254 Wh/mi (see picture). How about you?
My off peak hours charging with my Clipper Creek 240 volt Level 2 home charger price is $0.08/kWhr. How about you?
See my breakdown of how much I pay for electricity compared to what someone pays for gasoline in an ICE vehicle to drive 10,000 miles per year in my pinned tweet on Twitter at @BoySpartan
My off peak hours charging with my Clipper Creek 240 volt Level 2 home charger price is $0.08/kWhr. How about you?
See my breakdown of how much I pay for electricity compared to what someone pays for gasoline in an ICE vehicle to drive 10,000 miles per year in my pinned tweet on Twitter at @BoySpartan
Candleflame
Active Member
your argument is kinda flawed. ICE car drivers typically dont like to empty their tanks to like 0% on long distance journeys. a) because the gauge/range estimate can be off and b) people tend to refuel as soon as the red light would come on (usually at 15% remaining) and c) going too low on an older ICE is at least according to common belief associated with damaging the engine as you suck the crud accumulated on the bottom of the fuel tank.
With an EV however, this problem doesnt really exist. People routinely drive their cars down to <5% without issues - yes I know many dont, but that is their choice. I drive my car down to <5% all the time due to lack of fast charging infrastructure. So while an EV can cycle from 90 - 5% vand ICE car usually cycles 100% to 10-15% on road trips. so much the same.
The other point is that most people do not drive long distances frequently. that means that an ICE car spends much more time refueling than an EV which gets charged at home.
PRactical EPA range is the same for EVs as it is for ICE. The cycle is the same. there is no such thing as a "practical EPA range". the EPA range is a range on an EPA test cycle so its good to compare several cars and their consumption. they are not reflective of range you can get but a good constant to compare cars.
the flaw is that for some reason for gas cars the consumption gets advertised whereas for EVs, range gets advertised. When they really should just advertise EPA consumption (and then the battery "tank" size which was available during the EPA cycle)
Thirdly, multiple tests have now shown that during long distance journeys the EV is roughly the same speed as a gas car for long journeys. This is simply mediated by the fact that there are only few endurance riders who drive i.e. 600km in one go. Most people will stop after a couple of hours to have a coffee or buy food etc. My parents are the best example of people who keep banging on about how they dont have time to wait for an EV to charge. But equally on their 700km trip to swizerland they needed to have a 45min breakfast break after 300km followed by a 10min coffe break at like 600km. So really its much of a muchness.
I received delivery of my new Model 3 SR+ this past Tuesday and has observed two things:
1. When connecting to a Supercharger, the charger moves slightly to the right as if the heavy weight of the cable pulls it in that direction. The "resting position" of the charger is ever-so slightly angled. If I pull the handle to the left it moves slightly. It might be my OCD, not sure if the Charging Port is defective?
2. After a charge to 80%, I drove 13 miles at 65mph with a slight bridge incline (1 mile) and the battery percentage dropped by 9% - is this normal? It seems faster than it should
1. When connecting to a Supercharger, the charger moves slightly to the right as if the heavy weight of the cable pulls it in that direction. The "resting position" of the charger is ever-so slightly angled. If I pull the handle to the left it moves slightly. It might be my OCD, not sure if the Charging Port is defective?
2. After a charge to 80%, I drove 13 miles at 65mph with a slight bridge incline (1 mile) and the battery percentage dropped by 9% - is this normal? It seems faster than it should
Twice i fully charged my 2020 LR M3 and got 297 showing on the dash when charging stopped. I normally charge 80% at home only. I am expecting at least 300+ when fully charged for trips. Same result in my home charger as with a supercharge staton. Anyone calling service for this and what is their response
Just picked up my model 3 SR+ a week ago. When I go into the app to change the charge limit and I take it to max it shows a mileage of 257. I thought it was supposed to be 265 miles, has my battery already degraded 3% in a week? Little concerned about the longevity of the car, max I’ve charged it is 90% and I typically only go up to 80-85%. Any thought or am I just being paranoid?
I just recently charged to 100% ( probably my 5th time doing so ), my range stated 270 miles. Now I read it has to deal with the BMS not calibrated, but here is my charging habit. Every two day, I charge from 10-15% to 90% either supercharged or L2. This is just a 10% loss if it was really degradation?
19k miles.
19k miles.
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