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Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health

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Is the range really that poor of a Tesla?
No. EPA testing methodology is that poor. Tesla is just stating the for-real tested numbers that they get from EPA testing.
Does it matter? Stop in Lindale and supercharge for 5 mins. It's nearly 100 degrees, and there's a 10mph headwind.
Yeah, this continues to blow my mind how people have access to the best, most convenient, super fast charging network on Earth, but want to try to skip it and not use it, and then complain about range. There is a Supercharger right there in the middle of your drive, @Kingman514 . Just use it for a quick break, and there's no issue at all.
 
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ABRP shows it takes 96% of a full battery to go 196 miles. Tesla trip planner is about the same. Is the range really that poor of a Tesla?

No the range is not that poor this time of year. As @Gauss Guzzler said, you should expect to get about 300-330Wh/mi if you're driving pretty fast (80mph). Depends on the headwind, etc.

But you'll have 76kWh above 0% to work with, so that means in 196 miles you'll use no more than about 65kWh, or 86% of your capacity.

I'd guess you'll be able to start at 100% and arrive around 15-20%.

Conditions are good this time of year. Other times of year will be worse.

Keep in mind that there is 4.5% of your energy below 0% which you should never use, but is used in the EPA tests. So realistically you should think of it more like a "300-mile range" vehicle. But even that you'll never make, since that number assumes you're driving around 50mph the whole time because that is how the test cycles (city & highway are blended) and the derating factors work out.

Good rule of thumb is about 200 miles on a full charge is comfortable. But depends on the conditions and many other factors.

If you post the ABRP link to your plan we might be able to determine what went wrong in the configuration. There are a lot of settings in ABRP (degradation, starting SoC, speed, etc.)
 
I too have noticed a down tick in my Teslamate Projected Range since late July. We saw our summer turn on the heat around then, so I hope it's a weather/temperature bias that they overcooked and the "more accurate range" calculation is the reason behind the trend, OR an updated Avg Wh/mi denominator now that we're using A/C more aggressively.

thats normal as range usually drops in chunks with BMS recalibration. the degradation amount seems normal for a car with 20k miles.
 
So I'm not gonna read through 133 pages of comments, but wanted to provide some battery data for my July '21 build SR+. Been charging it to 90% each time aside from 1 100% charge. Usually let it drain to 20-30% before charging back up. From what I've gathered, the calculated range loss is pretty much on par with what I should expect after ~1,800 miles? Data courtesy of Teslafi:

range.png
 
thats normal as range usually drops in chunks with BMS recalibration. the degradation amount seems normal for a car with 20k miles.
First I know I'm in the wrong sandbox, but the MY sub forum is trailing on the information here in M3. Don't feel you need to muddy the M3 forum with my situation.

I'm making the argument it's not normal. My car has 6k miles 36 charge cycles in 2 months on it, and I have a Nominal Full Pack of 76.3 on a 82.1 pack? I was happily trending on 329miles for weeks, and as if the BMS lost it's mind I'm off 3-4% from New already. I'm shocked that with the headroom buffer that Tesla sets, why am I seeing this already? We've been very careful how we've treated this pack. Our charges have been reasonable in the times we've had it. Following all of the "general guidance".

Tesla3MCharges.JPG


I've watched every single Calibration video, and read many of these range loss threads. What I'm seeing doesn't make sense. The drop doesn't line up with an Update, it doesn't line up with a set of high charge cycles. I'm not finding the real reason.

This is more of a drop than is reasonable, and I don't like the trendline, IMHO. So I don't easily accept the party line answer of "it's normal".

TeslaProjRange.JPG
 
So I'm not gonna read through 133 pages of comments, but wanted to provide some battery data for my July '21 build SR+. Been charging it to 90% each time aside from 1 100% charge. Usually let it drain to 20-30% before charging back up. From what I've gathered, the calculated range loss is pretty much on par with what I should expect after ~1,800 miles? Data courtesy of Teslafi:

View attachment 702031
Yeah assuming TeslaFi's projections are good, you're at about 260/263*53.5kWh = 52.9kWh for your "55.4kWh" battery (which typically starts at about 53.5kWh).

I'm making the argument it's not normal. My car has 6k miles 36 charge cycles in 2 months on it, and I have a Nominal Full Pack of 76.3 on a 82.1 pack?

You're below average for your vehicle, but it's still normal. Note that your pack started around 79kWh for a Model Y with 331 miles of range. Note the EPA rating is 326 miles of range which corresponds to 77.8kWh or so.

You're now at 76.3kWh, with around 320 miles of range.

So depending on how you look at it, you've lost 2% of your capacity, or 3.5-4%. This is all quite normal. You have 6k miles in two months too so you are putting some miles on it, which will impact capacity.


I was happily trending on 329miles for weeks, and as if the BMS lost it's mind I'm off 3-4% from New already

Looks like you probably never saw above 329 miles (a little hard to say), which means you started with a slightly worse pack than most Model Y owners, at 78.5kWh; many start with a bit over 79kWh. So actually you've only lost 2.9%.
I'm shocked that with the headroom buffer that Tesla sets, why am I seeing this already?
There isn't really any headroom buffer on Model Y LR since it starts at a 79kWh degradation threshold, corresponding to 331 rated miles displayed (the EPA rating is 326 rated miles), and many people see right around that 79kWh value and 330-331 rated miles at a full charge. So you'll see loss pretty much as soon as the capacity starts reducing, on that vehicle. (This behavior is different for different vehicle models - it all depends on the positioning of the degradation threshold relative to the full pack capacity.)
We've been very careful how we've treated this pack. Our charges have been reasonable in the times we've had it.
Generally I'd suggest using 60-70% SoC for your charges if it's convenient for you to do so. You'll slow down the aging a bit in theory. Just charge it every day. Whether this actually will make a difference is unclear - so only do it if it's actually convenient. If it's a pain, use a higher charge level.
I've watched every single Calibration video, and read many of these range loss threads.
There isn't really such a thing as "calibration" in most cases. In almost all cases I've seen reported, the BMS is correctly capturing the state of the pack. There are examples where it is way off (see here for a 20% recovery from 60kWh to 74kWh), but that's unusual. Yeah, you might see 1-2kWh adjustment here and there, possibly dependent on your daily charge level choice, but there are so many variables it's a bit difficult to ascribe that to the actual "calibration."
So I don't easily accept the party line answer of "it's normal".

Well, it pretty much is, historically, normal to lose about 10% capacity over the first couple years. There are (of course!) exceptions (see @KenC for example!), but that should be the expectation. It's a lottery, some people get better results, others get worse - largely unrelated to how they treat their battery.

Whether we'll see that same behavior for the 2170L packs is TBD. Maybe time will tell and you'll actually be shown to have a much worse pack than everyone else (because the other 2170L packs happen to show much reduced degradation vs. the 2170 packs). But we have no idea.

Anyway, back to Model 3!
 
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@Toneus (this is a repost since some posts were moved for obvious reasons, and related quoting posts are often moved even though nothing within them requires them to be moved).

@Dave EV 's point here is that initial capacity loss tends to be steep, and then it levels out. That's just what is always seen, in aggregate, for EVs. (There are of course exceptions for individual vehicles.)

Regarding this step you see: No one outside of Tesla knows exactly how the BMS in the Tesla works. However, it's periodically determining the "CAC," calculated amp-hour capacity, and adjusting the range based on the minimum value of this in your bricks (each brick has a different CAC, but the minimum CAC brick limits your pack available energy since they are in series). How often this is updated is unclear, and how it adjusts is unclear. My impression is that it often tends to make "step changes," for whatever reason. Whether that is because they build in some sort of hysteresis, or long-term averaging, I do not know. What I do know and have seen myself is that I saw these step changes (on the order of 1-1.5kWh), which are likely not exactly physical, but rather represent a periodic "update" to the state of your pack - meaning you might have been gradually losing capacity for a bit and then the BMS updates its estimate and you "see" it.

However, the BMS algorithms and update methods are always changing, so what I saw with my car 1-2 years ago when I was losing capacity, may no longer apply (in addition you have a different battery type). I saw step changes of about 8 miles at a time, and have settled on about 285-290 miles at a full charge. And it's been there for the last year or so (I don't quite recall exactly and I stopped using monitoring software). (About 10% loss.) I expect further loss over time - to what level I have no idea.

Your capacity loss to me looks normal (to me it also looks like you started a bit below average, which is also normal, for the people who start below average, haha), and it will also likely slow down eventually - you may have an additional 5-10% to go though. No one knows since the 2170L packs are new and may have different characteristics.
 
What should I assume that my car is doing if it gains 4-5% range in a few weeks?

2021-08-27_11-24.png


One thing I've learned about BMSs and estimated capacity after 10+ years of driving EVs is that that's all they are - estimates based on incomplete information. Assuming that something weird is going on because you see a step-change or sudden change in range is usually the wrong assumption to make as the estimates do tend to change rapidly over time.

Your battery will always lose range and the short-term changes in BMS capacity estimates don't matter. What really matters is how much usable energy you can get out of the pack from 100% to 0% - but this is hard to measure accurately - which is why the BMS estimate fluctuates over time. The best way I've seen to do this over time for the typical person is to drain the battery until the car shuts off (or if using TeslaScan, until the minimum cell voltage hits a certain threshold, eg 3.0V resting), then charge the car at a prescribed rate back to 100% in controlled environmental conditions and measure the amount of energy that goes into the car as one can buy an accurate energy meter for a reasonable amount of money.

But even then, the BMS may turn off the fun early due to noise, etc, so even these types of tests have some amount of error - easily a couple percent.

The best advice I've seen is to switch the car to percentage and stop worrying about it.

Note: I still do my best to prolong battery life by keeping my average SOC low when convenient as this is scientifically proven to get your battery to last longer. It's clear that the Model 3/Y batteries don't hold capacity as well as the Model S/X 85 kWh and 100 kWh packs. The 90 kWh packs were a bit of an outlier - the rumors are that the used more silicon in them and that because silicon causes the cell's innards to expand/contract more, this causes the cells to lose capacity faster. It's quite likely that Tesla is using more silicon in the Model 3/Y cells than the Model S/X 85/100 packs.
 
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Regarding this step you see: No one outside of Tesla knows exactly how the BMS in the Tesla works. However, it's periodically determining the "CAC," calculated amp-hour capacity, and adjusting the range based on the minimum value of this in your bricks (each brick has a different CAC, but the minimum CAC brick limits your pack available energy since they are in series). How often this is updated is unclear, and how it adjusts is unclear. My impression is that it often tends to make "step changes," for whatever reason.

@AlanSubie4Life - This is very helpful!

My next question is, but I think I know the answer... A 5 Ah imbalance sounds large enough to explain this step and why My Nominal Full is only 76.2 kWh.

Or is that a loss of both higher Bricks 5 Ah and what might be 1.5 Ah?

CACImbalance.JPG
 
...
Well, it pretty much is, historically, normal to lose about 10% capacity over the first couple years. There are (of course!) exceptions (see @KenC for example!), but that should be the expectation. It's a lottery, some people get better results, others get worse - largely unrelated to how they treat their battery.
...
Did someone call? Here's my latest chart:
IMG_2276.jpeg

Just took a 4400 mile road trip at 19k to 23k miles, where I supercharged 40x in a row.
 
Did someone call? Here's my latest chart:
View attachment 702171
Just took a 4400 mile road trip at 19k to 23k miles, where I supercharged 40x in a row.
Still takes the cake for the best result I've seen so far. (This implies you've lost no more than 4%, assuming you started with a 79kWh capacity battery - would be high for a 2018 Model 3, 78kWh seemed more typical, but 79kWh possible - and capacity loss does not show for 2018 Model 3 until below 76kWh.) Glad you had a good safe road trip!
 
A 5 Ah imbalance sounds large enough to explain this step and why My Nominal Full is only 76.2 kWh.

Or is that a loss of both higher Bricks 5 Ah and what might be 1.5 Ah?

Not sure what your question is. CAC imbalance is different than a voltage imbalance, though a CAC imbalance on a voltage-balanced battery would lead to voltage imbalance during a discharge, of course - since the energy in each brick is different, and the minimum CAC brick therefore limits your capacity assuming no ability/opportunity to top off the worst case brick at a lower SOC.

Anyway, CACs go down over time, it's normal. And they can go up again too to some extent - also normal - since they're (very good) estimates.
 
This means you have some capacity loss or a car with a BMS that has not figured things out yet. It thinks you are at 76.8kWh.

Interesting with a new 2021 which should be at 79kWh plus and should not show any loss for a while. That is why I think it has just maybe not figured it out yet. Happens occasionally though rare.


This large jump is weird but it does happen. What does the trip meter say?

This is 9%. This could definitely happen. Would take about 400Wh/mi though; high for this time of year. Remember energy used while parked is not counted on the trip meter. What did it say?
I have not reached out to Tesla yet.
 
My model 3 is only about 3 months old. All of a sudden my fully charged range dropped from 237 to 197. I typically charge at home, so I tried my work parking lot charger with the same results. Anyone else?
Did you set the charge limit lower (note you can toggle this in the app and car)?
How to change the charge limit on your Tesla?

It shouldn't drop like that suddenly. Also which Model 3 do you have? I don't think any version has around 237 miles from new. The off menu SR is 220 miles and SR+ is 263. I think you have a charge limit set for sure.
 
Probably yet another question on range but I didn't see any postings here that might address my particular situation so I decided to ask.

About three weeks ago I purchased a 2019 Model 3 Performance with roughly 19K on the clock. The vehicle didn't come with the UMC so it took me approximately a week and a half to get the new one. Once I finally had the ability to charge I noticed the vehicle only charged up to 238 miles. After further investigation I discovered there is a charge setting which limits how much to charge and that it can be changed via the charging screen. Great!

I bump up the setting to full charge and, when completed, I had 265 miles of range. This is considerably lower than the 308 miles the car is advertised at. After some searching I did see that some loss of range is expected during the first year and then tapers off for subsequent years. This amounts to a decrease of 14%, considerably higher than what I saw in the searching I performed.

So I have a few questions:
  • Is a 14% reduction in range typical of a two year old Model 3 with roughly 19K miles?
  • Does driving habits affect the maximum range?
I know with my Volt the way I drove the vehicle had an impact on the displayed maximum range but I can't recall an instance, aside from cold weather temperatures, where the maximum range was ever lower than the advertised range (53 miles). This after three years of ownership. There were times where, based on my driving habits, the range would reach 70 miles (but it took a while to get there so I think it was based on my average driving style). If the previous owner of this Model 3 liked to utilize its performance would that drop the range estimate down more than someone who was less enthusiastic with the car? Or is this something I should contact Tesla about?