What app is this? I would love to install it to see what my 2020 is at.. I am showing over 15% loss with 46k miles on it. This app may give some insight.
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Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health
- Thread starter KK_RedM3
- Start date
What app is this? I would love to install it to see what my 2020 is at.. I am showing over 15% loss with 46k miles on it. This app may give some insight.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Hopefully! It is hard to know what the future will bring. It’s probably fine, and hopefully they have learned from whatever issues there may have been in the early vehicles (maybe it was not even specific to the battery?).
Good to see at least that you can can 60k+ plus km from Supercharging minimum. Should be enough for most typical users over the life of vehicle.
Thanks, I assumed its indeed 82.1kwh, hence my assumption of 8% instead of 6% degredeation.
505-506km means a capacity(nominal remaining) of 80.3-80.5kWh if this was checked at a full 100% charge.
Each km on the screen is 159Wh.
For teslafi it underestimates the range slightly by only getting the whole number of the SOC. I would guess the most API-driven apps will do the same thing as they probably only get the whole percentage without decimals.
If the range was checked in any app that use the API the real capacity could have been slightly higher.
I’m also at around 18-20% SuC. I always preheat, as it should keep the bad things that happen( lithium plating) to a minimum.
Supercharging itself doenat seem to cause much degradation this early in M3 cars.
Thats good.
For the slightly low NFP, is it possible that the BMS have lost the track of the battery capacity? Have you been sown to one-digit SOC? It might be an idea to let the BMS see low SOC and to let the car sleep(sentry off, no checking in the Tesla app) with it, preferably over a night or at least a couple of hours. It could also be an idea to let it charge to full after showing the low side to let the BMS see the capacity.
Do you have Sentry mode on at home?
It could be a good thing to have it off at least some nights or some periods each week. Also to check that it can sleep properly when using teslamate.
As per above, the capacity (per BMS) should have been about 80.3-80.5 with max range 505-506km@100% SOC.
We saw that the BMS most probable did judge your capacity at about 80.3-80.5 kWh, that seem to be in the middle of the normal.
Most 2021 performance, at least the US built have been between 80.0 and 80.5, a few closer to 81kWh.
The 82.1kWh battery actually delivered 82kWh in the EPA test so I would guess that the BMS underestimates the 2170L cell when the battery is new. This could be due to the changed chemistry in no the 2170L (“+5% capacity”). As Tesla use a small “range buffer” that allow the capacity to reduce to about 80.6-80.7 kWh before the range drops it dosnt matter, as we should only see range without SMT etc.
There is a lot of M3P ‘21 that is showing about 75kWh these days.
[Edit] I did take a look at your probable average SOC and it look like its not very much below 80%. I didnt get the manufacturing date or when you did get the car, but if we assume that you had the car about one year, a 5-6% calendar aging is not improbable. You live in England, so not that hot climate. (Not that cold either, as I have close to the Polar Circle).
If we cut 6% with the calculator from your 80.3-80.5 we end up at about 75.6 kWh.
It might be a coincidence that this is what the car shows.
Should I stop avoiding 30-50% super charging once a week when Im right next to the supercharger?
I visit that area once a week at least, and always skip it for the sake of keeping my battery happy.
Re one-digit SoC - I had, but very very little, as I said, only twice. Last time was....October 21'. Before that I was down to 12% on January 22'.
I use sentry only when out. when at home my battery rests for hours without charging, balancing itself. Teslamate doesn't wake the car up, it is asleep for long period of times without an issue. Only when I go to work or travel I have sentry on, but its not every day.
Per what both of you claimed, indeed it is safe to assume my battery original capacity is actually 80.6kwh (teslamate showed 507km at some point at the early beginning), so its 93.7% SoH.
With the most up-to-date software, is it still showing range in the car according to EPA range? meaning that I can always just multtiply it by 159 to know the current capacity?
Where the data on cars is taken from? Can I know what is the average capacity for China delivered M3P? Either Panasonic or LG batteries?
Can you explain your edit content? What do you mean 'its not very much below 80%'?
My car was delivered on June 2021. And actually I do live in hot climate (middle east), summer goes up to 40degrees, winter is around 5-20degrees, depends.
Should I do any occassional cycle where I charge all the way to 100% and charge back only at very low SoC? If so, how often?
Thing is I barely get to use so much battery at once, unless I travel, but even then, I cant risk it going too low because charging network isnt that great in my area. Is it still worthy going to 100% (and let it balance for 1-3 hours) and over the course of a few days, let it eventually drop below 10%?
By the way, I have another electric car at home. Peugeot e2008. I measured it as well. after 10kkm, while only being charged at home, SoH is 95-96%.
Hard to say( One should live also, withputs too much wurry), but in general:
-Smaller cycles wear much less than bigger cycles.
-cycles wear less when placed lower in SOC range( i.e: 50-10 causes less wear than 80 to 40%)
-Supercharging mostly cause lithium plating and with preheating this is minimized. SuC probably do not wear much at all if the battery is preheated enough.
-one extra charge could make the cycles much smaller and thereby make it possible to use a lower SOC= smaller cycles and lower placed = win for the battery.
All this said, the main cause for degradation is calendar aging:
The above is probably the biggest reason for the decradation. Then you probably reach more than 5-6% during the first year if the average SOC is 70-80%. It lokks in your graph like the average SOC is fairly high? Even if charging late/before the drive which is the way to go.
You could do a search on my nick here on SMT and start reading about calendar aging . I think you have much to win if you know more about calendar aging.
Yes, as long as the battery capacity not is above the EPA-range 507km then the Wh/km is fixed at 159Wh/km.
I’ll be back for the rest of the questions
I dont have much data on China built M3P, but for the US ones, most M3P begin about 80.0-80.5 kWh NFP.
China built cars have the same battery but manufactured in China(I do not know if the cells is made in China or US). In theory the pack should have about the same capacity but some circumstamces might affect this.
I did a quick judgement of the average SOC your battery have had. I think it looks like the average has been between 70 and 80% ? This was just a quick judgement from the picture you posted.
If you search for my nick and ’calendar aging’ you will find ingo about calendar aging. 70-80% causes relatively high calendar aging and combined with high temperature this degrades the battery.
No, that isnt (or shouldn't be) really necessary.
I just use the car as I need. I usually charge to 55%, for normal workweeks( 94km roundtrip to work) and the car sleeps at night with the end-SOC for the day which is 20-35% most days. Charging is set to commence late in the night and be ready shortly before the drive to work. I seem to do a 100% cgarge about omce a month anyway due to travel. Today I returned from my mother in law and planned to arrive with low SOC, and deovi it down to -1%, this is due to be able to compare with conv90 readings. (My NFP is 80.8kWh, full range so I do not need to do this for my cars sake.) My charging is set to commence 0200 (this night) so the car will sleep with -1% until then. 0200 is set to reach 55% about 0600, and I leave for work 0630.
If you like to try to ”up” the Nominal full pack/ indicated range you can do a full charge(let is sleep an hour or two) and also a low side, single digit should be fine.
The low side can sleep overnight to allow for good readings for the BMS.
I suspect that your BMS is on track and that there is no big hidden capacity. I thi k the heat + time have eaten up those about 4-5kWh for you.
I had a long drive home so I made it to arrive low, and then I drove the car down to about -1%. I did shut off the AC, but then I went out to unload packing and parked it in the garage. I think the AC/heating was running after backing it in( -7C outside so the heatpump probably worked with 3-4kW.)
I did plan to look at it with low load, but probably failed…well, heres the data anyway.
[Efit]Went out to get another picture.
AC off, lights off, battery power 0.40kW.
Now the car did have a little time to catch the breath. The SOC and SOC expected have changed since I parked.
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Yes ... 52%. I made an error. The displayed SOC in the screen is the SMT SOC Expected.
Hello,
Long time browser, first time poster. I recently bought a used 2018 Tesla Model 3 LR AWD. I’ve noticed since purchasing it my range or estimated miles reduce rather quickly so for piece of mind I switched my range over to percentage. I’m noticing my range percentage drops a percentage around every 2-3 minutes worth of driving. Last trip I averaged 290 Wh/mi. Is this normal? The trip was around an hour and a half going around 70 mph avg. Weather has been colder lately as well. I also charged up to 80% and by time I got home from my trip which was around 70 miles, I was down to 39% left. Just seems like the range is going down rather quick. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Long time browser, first time poster. I recently bought a used 2018 Tesla Model 3 LR AWD. I’ve noticed since purchasing it my range or estimated miles reduce rather quickly so for piece of mind I switched my range over to percentage. I’m noticing my range percentage drops a percentage around every 2-3 minutes worth of driving. Last trip I averaged 290 Wh/mi. Is this normal? The trip was around an hour and a half going around 70 mph avg. Weather has been colder lately as well. I also charged up to 80% and by time I got home from my trip which was around 70 miles, I was down to 39% left. Just seems like the range is going down rather quick. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
I don't believe it either. The developer seems to misunderstand my questions. As I've posted before, he basically ignored my questions about the SOC api he was using for 2yrs, before he suddenly figure it out and switched! Here's his twitter answer to my question about what vehicles he was including in his new datapoint:
As you can see, he says it's the same year and same model, and of course, same approx mileage. As you can see, he says, "again", since it's not the first time I've asked! I think I annoy him.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
To be clear, I think it's entirely possible the data is only from 2018 vehicles (AWD only). Maybe he also includes 2019 which wouldn't screw up the picture. But that's not what the distribution looks like, probably. He's just plotting it that way (as a Gaussian with the same parameters). 293 miles (72kWh, 7.5% capacity loss from new) seems reasonable as a mean for those vehicles - though I would have guessed slightly lower, about 287 or so.
Smaller cycles meaning, charging more often, like 20%->50%, or 50%->80%, instead of say, 20%->80%?
Im really surprised that its better to be on the lower side of SoC, its always said to be very wary of going below 20%, or above 80%, and some material I read online over time suggested to prefer to go down to 20%, instead of 10%. Your comment actually suggests the other way around.
Ill read around this thread about your comments on calendar aging (I suspect its ajourney of its own, so I chose to comment before doing that, because this thread is quite active).
Generally speaking, it quite disappointing to live in the lower side of the battery charge state, I like the 'kick'/'reaction' the car has, and it is quite noticeable between 30-40% and 80-90%.
Aside from that, I usually have a 80-90km commute on daily basis (when I leave the house, which is not every day due to covid), but raising a family means I many times have unexpected drives. It might be too much. for my mental health to always be prepared with just 50%, with not much margin for driving faster/severe traffic/AC/unexpected rides. The smallest unexpected thing will make me need to go supercharging and delay my day.
I dont know if aging can be averaged in this case? If one car was radically kept at 10% and 100% all the time, I guess it also accumulates wear more than a car that was always set to 55% such as yours.
The average is actually 63%:
What is the state of your car? How many mileage did it run, your charging habits were always usually 55%?
How is its health as of today, do you feel that this approach was fruitful to you more than the average case?
Also, are there metrics for over time usage, if I continue using the way I use it today, will it continue to degrade by that 5-6% every year?
Long before the 2170?
Every Model 3 is made with 2170 cells...
I guess I should add a minor correction: The Model 3 has never used a different size cylindrical cell. There is the SR+ that uses LFP cells that are not 2170s...
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I feel anything under 350 wh/mi is normal. I actually averaged around 340 wh/mi with my 20 inch rims but I have a lead foot
I can hit ~300 wh/mi driving like a normal human so 290 wh/mi seems completely good in cold.
Jeremy3292
Active Member
It is better to use the percentage than the miles as the miles are just EPA rated miles, which mean nothing. You will eventually learn how much percentage you use going to various places. 290 Wh/mi is normal, especially for highway use and in the cold. Since it is a used car and you don't know the driving and charging history, you can try to calibrate the BMS better (may or may not help). Let the car sit at around 20% or less for 4-6 hours undisturbed (no sentry mode, no querying from app, no opening doors) and then charge it to 100% until it says "Charge Complete" on the app. See what the total miles are at 100% now and then drive as normal and see if that helped. You want the car to "see" various levels of charge so that it can better calibrate the percentage/miles, but it can only take "readings" after 4-6 hours of undisturbed time.
Yes, Depth of Discharge is the formal name = the number of percent in a charging-discharge cycle. The smaller the better.
To be able to compare different DoD, Equivalent Full Cycles(EFC) is used. One EFC is 100-0%, so if doing small cycles of 10%, you need 10 of these for one EFC.
In here, it is a quite humble atmosphere (
) but in some other places there is a very unsoft atmosphere where the members ”know” since 100 years that…. And the knowledge is mostly forum rumors and often not correct.From research, you will find links and pictures from in ny other posts, we know that the lower the SOC the lower the calendar aging. This is valid as long as the cell is kept at or above the minimum voltage ( which you can not go below on a Tesla).
There is no research at all showing that low SOC is not the best.
Also, Tesla do not say that low SOC is bad but the yellow and red battery icons probably did make people draw own(faulty) conclusions.
Research show us that small DoD is better and that a Cycle placed low in range is better.
One need to make their own decisions.
To make the decision its good to base them on real facts instead of faulty rumors.
Of course, if you like to always have the full punch you need a higher SOC. But you will cause a higher degradation, specially in hot climate.
I have a 94km roundtrip home-work-home and live close to the artic circle. I did use 55% even when it was below -30C.
We use studded tyres so too much power kill the studs anyway (ask me how I know, coming from other powerful cars).
There is a sharp step in the calendar aging graph between 55 and 60% SOC, and it is more or less a straight line from 0-55% and relatively flat above 60%.
The easy way for judging calendar aging would be to use the average SOC. If the average is close to 60% one can perhaps count half the time slightly below and half slightly above. This will probably get a approximately correct degradation calculation. It will not be a exact calculation anyway.
Calendar aging lessens with time. The standard way to use the ”square root of time” formula. The calendar aging from the first year will be doubled after a total of four years from start( = another three years after tge first to cause double degradation, with the same conditions).
I did three Supercharging sessions during the 1000km drive home. First days home I used 80%, due to being new to EV + about -30C most of the first month. After this I reduced the charging successively to 55%.
I did charge “just before driving from day one.
I always have had full range at full charge and NFP about 80.5 or higher. I have suspected that the BMS overestimate the range due to my charging schedule.
Last night I drove the car down to -2% SOC, it slept overnight and charge this morning. NFP was 80.1 this morning and at work it sad 79.4. This is my all time low, but exactly in line with my calculated about (2.5-) 3% loss so far. I think my NFP will climb back, but I think my BMS is very on track right now.) My car probably would be around 4% when it is two years with the same usage.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
They mean quite a lot. But they're a measure of energy, not distance. Meanwhile, the % you use to do a fixed trip in fixed controlled conditions will change over time.
I use % these days FWIW. I take a quick look before road trips at rated miles. No surprises!
Jeremy3292
Active Member
My post was from another thread that got combined into this master thread by the mods. It is not relevant to any prior discussions going on in this master thread.
A new user was discussing that he/she saw his/her "miles" going down quicker than actual miles driven and that he/she switched over to % instead; I was commenting on that.
I just purchased a 2020 LR with 13k miles last week. I charged to 90% when I got home and when I switch the % to mi it only showed 252.
I did some reading online and found I should recalibrate the battery. So I got it down to 9%, let it sit for 1 hour. I then charged to 100%. when it hit 100% the mi showed 284. I immediately drove it down to just below 90%.
Why is it not showing the 353 like advertised? do I have a battery issue?
I did some reading online and found I should recalibrate the battery. So I got it down to 9%, let it sit for 1 hour. I then charged to 100%. when it hit 100% the mi showed 284. I immediately drove it down to just below 90%.
Why is it not showing the 353 like advertised? do I have a battery issue?
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