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Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health

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Under “Trips” or something in the newish UI you can access your trip data since you got in the drivers seat, and since your last charge. That’s the data to look at. I think if you do this again it’ll show closer to 330Wh/mi.


Depends on the surface! The stock wheels at least attempt to be somewhat aero.

Tires are super important too. Just as important as the wheels (though at 85mph the wheels start to be very important).
Even with less aero surface, a smaller surface in general should be more than enough to make up for that?
 
Anyone seeing an increase in 100%SoC mileage?

My car dropped down to 290 miles at some point in 2021, but it had slowly climbed back up to 310 miles @100% SoC. This was confirmed during a recent 100% charge for a road trip.

Car is a 2020 AWD LR, and I purchased it with 2,XXX miles and it charged to 315 miles at that time.

Anything change with the last few software updates?
 
My model 3 started off when it was brand new, 100% = 578km
This morning its 563km for 100%, 15km gone.

Now one might say its probably my charging habit... which I don't think so.
Maybe I drive alot?? for 4 months I drove 11500km already, could be..
Anyways, here how I charge.
I supercharge only 4 times so far, never exceeding 25min or 30% of my cars total capacity. (Becuz supercharge is expensive)
I always charge with lvl 2 charger? (10kW or 206V @ 48A) once a week, from 20-25% to 90-95%

I know probably some of you might quickly say, "oh, you charged over the recommended 80% limit"...
then I would say... so Tesla advertised the car's capacity but doesn't allow user to really use it because it damages the battery life span??!!
It's like saying SSD drive can hold 1TB, but after you buy it you found it you can only use 600GB, top 20% and bottom 20% will start damaging the SSD life capacity.
 
Now one might say its probably my charging habit... which I don't think so.
No, it’s probably not. Just kind of normal. Can read this thread but if it’s convenient to you, just charge every day and charge to a lower level.

Otherwise keep doing what you are doing, since it is likely the most convenient for you.

Your battery will be fine, even if your particular charging habits are not optimal. Any failure you might have in future would nearly certainly have happened anyway.
 
My model 3 started off when it was brand new, 100% = 578km
This morning its 563km for 100%, 15km gone.

Now one might say its probably my charging habit... which I don't think so.
Maybe I drive alot?? for 4 months I drove 11500km already, could be..

You need to adopt to the reality, which includes to undestand that the battery technology of today have some limitations.

You can do however you like, there is no need to be very carefull about the battery. But it might or will cause you extra degradation.
If you do not care today, you more or less have disqualified yourself from high pitch wining about degradation in a year or two ;)

I did drive 33000km the first year with no appearent loss of range. But I did not charge to 90-95% daily
Anyways, here how I charge.
I supercharge only 4 times so far, never exceeding 25min or 30% of my cars total capacity. (Becuz supercharge is expensive)
I always charge with lvl 2 charger? (10kW or 206V @ 48A) once a week, from 20-25% to 90-95%

I know probably some of you might quickly say, "oh, you charged over the recommended 80% limit"...
then I would say... so Tesla advertised the car's capacity but doesn't allow user to really use it because it damages the battery life span??!!

Tesla is clear with that you should not charge above 90% for daily driving. >90% is reserved for longer trips.

Batteries of today will degrade from hogh SOC, even if not the car is driven.
Calendar aging degrade the battery when the battery is at rest. The higher the SOC the higher the degradation. 0% SOC causes the least calendar aging.

During use cyclic aging causes degradation. In most cases cyclic aging is less than calendar aging.
Cyclic aging is less if the cycles are small.
Cyclic aging is less if the SOC is low during the cycles.
From one research report, a NCA battery( like Tesla Long range batteries) lost about 10% when it did 6000 10% cycles between 75-65% SOC ( =600FCE).
But the battery only lost 2% when cycled 6000 cycles between 35-25% SOC. (Also 600FCE).
It is the same number of cycles, same energy and only the SOC differs but the wear was 1/5 as low when cycled at
Low SOC.

It's like saying SSD drive can hold 1TB, but after you buy it you found it you can only use 600GB, top 20% and bottom 20% will start damaging the SSD life capacity.

You probably know that filling a SSD to more than about 90% reduce the performance of that SSD. You should not fill it above 90% if you want the high performance you can get from a SSD.

For the batteries, there is no danger going below 20% for the battery. That is a hard killed myth. For the sake of the battery, it is safe down to 0% on the screen.

To have low degradation:
- Low SOC is good. Charge before the drive to minimize the average SOC, and thereby the calendar aging.
- Charge often, use small cycles. If possible charge each day.
- Don not charge to a higher SOC than needed. For NCA, below 55% SOC the degradation from calendar aging is
Smaller.

The above is the essence of what the research/science have found About lithium ion batteries during the latest years.
 
My model 3 started off when it was brand new, 100% = 578km
This morning its 563km for 100%, 15km gone.

Now one might say its probably my charging habit... which I don't think so.
Maybe I drive alot?? for 4 months I drove 11500km already, could be..
Anyways, here how I charge.
I supercharge only 4 times so far, never exceeding 25min or 30% of my cars total capacity. (Becuz supercharge is expensive)
I always charge with lvl 2 charger? (10kW or 206V @ 48A) once a week, from 20-25% to 90-95%

I know probably some of you might quickly say, "oh, you charged over the recommended 80% limit"...
then I would say... so Tesla advertised the car's capacity but doesn't allow user to really use it because it damages the battery life span??!!
It's like saying SSD drive can hold 1TB, but after you buy it you found it you can only use 600GB, top 20% and bottom 20% will start damaging the SSD life capacity.
• A 2.5% drop in first 4 months of heavier than average driving is not unusual, pretty normal, actually.
• Rather than 1x a week charging, shallow charges are better. Keep it charging.
• There's nothing that says you can't charge above 80%, just try not to leave it charged and sitting above that level for long periods of time. So, you can use it, but that means USE, not sit at that level.
• SSDs slow down if it's too full. Besides if I buy a 1TB drive, is it really 1TB? You can use all your capacity, just don't store it at the extreme ends. Like above, USE it, don't store it at those levels.
 
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2022 Update.

2020 Model 3 LR AWD, October 2020 build date.
51,XXX miles.
Lifetime avg. of 278 Wh/mi.
100% Range = 306 miles.

Range dropped as low as 290 miles during the pandemic shut down. Before the shutdown, car charged to 90% every two days and discharged down to 20-25% before charging.

Starting February 2022, changed charging habit to 60% daily and discharge to 25-30%, and car is again routinely driven 60-65 miles per day. Rated range shown at 100% SoC has slowly crept back up to 306-310 miles from 290 miles.
 
Quick update: I stopped charging the car to 80% every day. Lo and behold, Projected Range is starting to creep back up:
View attachment 829576

Another update: Projected range keeps creeping upwards. It was as low as 265; as of this post, it's 278.

Not charging to 80% every day is definitely making a difference with the BMS...

1659108739998.png
 
Hi all,

Love the battery discussions. Wanted some insight on my 2022 MYP, the family car. Purchased April 12, 2022. It has 5200 miles.

Charging from Day 3 and on has been limited to 50% maximum charge for all everyday local driving. Scheduled departure with a Tesla Wall Connector (48amp) is setup to have the car charged to the limit every morning by 9am. Usually at 30-35% SoC every day.

Have done a grand total of 7 supercharger sessions on the car. 2 road trips from Las Vegas to San Diego. Limit to 80% due to busy superchargers. For the local driving in San Diego I charge with the slow 120V outlet at my parents house when with the limit set at 80% on the slow charger for the few days we visit there.

Earlier in life, the battery showed 303 miles at 100% before hitting 1st road trip. I did a another recent road trip and charged to 100% at house before heading out from and it showed 275 miles. Car has only been to 100% twice in it's life. I don't plan to charge to 100% departure anymore for road trips as I know I can make it to a supercharger without it from my past road trip experiences now.

Lifetime efficiency is 279wh/mile.

  1. Do I really have almost 10% degradation at this low mileage with such low conservative charge limit?
  2. Is the 48amp charge too aggressive?
  3. Is the heat killing my battery slowly even at the low SoC?
  4. Is something mis-calibrated?
 
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Hi all,

Love the battery discussions. Wanted some insight on my 2022 MYP, the family car. Purchased April 12, 2022. It has 5200 miles.

Charging from Day 3 and on has been limited to 50% maximum charge for all everyday local driving. Scheduled departure with a Tesla Wall Connector (48amp) is setup to have the car charged to the limit every morning by 9am. Usually at 30-35% SoC every day.

Have done a grand total of 7 supercharger sessions on the car. 2 road trips from Las Vegas to San Diego. Limit to 80% due to busy superchargers. For the local driving in San Diego I charge with the slow 120V outlet at my parents house when with the limit set at 80% on the slow charger for the few days we visit there.

Earlier in life, the battery showed 303 miles at 100% before hitting 1st road trip. I did a another recent road trip and charged to 100% at house before heading out from and it showed 275 miles. Car has only been to 100% twice in it's life. I don't plan to charge to 100% departure anymore for road trips as I know I can make it to a supercharger without it from my past road trip experiences now.

Lifetime efficiency is 279wh/mile.

  1. Do I really have almost 10% degradation at this low mileage with such low conservative charge limit?
  2. Is the 48amp charge too aggressive?
  3. Is the heat killing my battery slowly even at the low SoC?
  4. Is something mis-calibrated?

I'm guessing it's probably #4 a bit and #3, and definitely not #2. Heat hurts batteries and LV in summer is extra hot. I think your charging schedule is as optimal as can be.
 
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Do I really have almost 10% degradation at this low mileage with such low conservative charge limit?

Interesting datapoint.

Seems a little high given your habits but is certainly possible.

It’s also possible that the extreme heat in Las Vegas causes the estimation to be off slightly, but not sure how likely that is.

I’d look at the extrapolations from 90% in future and see how consistently they are extrapolating go 275.

There have been a few reports here with 2170L cells of sudden large losses in range of similar magnitude to what you see, which have recovered over time (several weeks). Some sort of BMS bug. The other way this goes is towards battery failure (after another couple charges). But the car will tell you about that.
 
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I'm not worried about it all. When I picked up the car it said 353 miles at 100% and 20k miles later it still says 353 miles at 100%. Makes me feel like my OCD charging habits have been worth it or at the very least I got a good draw on the battery lottery. Either way it's good enough for me!
I missed the part where you describe you charging habits. Am on a need to know basis....:)
 
Hi all,

Love the battery discussions. Wanted some insight on my 2022 MYP, the family car. Purchased April 12, 2022. It has 5200 miles.

Charging from Day 3 and on has been limited to 50% maximum charge for all everyday local driving. Scheduled departure with a Tesla Wall Connector (48amp) is setup to have the car charged to the limit every morning by 9am. Usually at 30-35% SoC every day.

Have done a grand total of 7 supercharger sessions on the car. 2 road trips from Las Vegas to San Diego. Limit to 80% due to busy superchargers. For the local driving in San Diego I charge with the slow 120V outlet at my parents house when with the limit set at 80% on the slow charger for the few days we visit there.

Earlier in life, the battery showed 303 miles at 100% before hitting 1st road trip. I did a another recent road trip and charged to 100% at house before heading out from and it showed 275 miles. Car has only been to 100% twice in it's life. I don't plan to charge to 100% departure anymore for road trips as I know I can make it to a supercharger without it from my past road trip experiences now.

Lifetime efficiency is 279wh/mile.

  1. Do I really have almost 10% degradation at this low mileage with such low conservative charge limit?
  2. Is the 48amp charge too aggressive?
  3. Is the heat killing my battery slowly even at the low SoC?
  4. Is something mis-calibrated?
1. Not probable that this is real degradation. 5% is possible if the battery has been really warn most days. (50 celcius or so). I have seen that the battery seems to stay around 5-6 Celcius above the ambient if the sun is shining on the car. (This at medium ambient temps, 20C or so).
2. Nope. Anything at 15-20kW or below is considered skow charging and would not affect the degradation ”at all”.
3. Depending on what heat you have, if it is put in the sun etc, heat is degrading the battery but low SOC is good and actually the best countermeasure except keeping out of heat (which is not an option for all).
( I’ll arrive at Las Vegas tomorrow, traveling only to check the ambient temps to have all battery degradation data ;) ).
4. I guess 50% or more of your loss is a calibration issue. Staying low held my M3P with the same battery at full range for almost 1.5 years / 40k Km, but I did not stay low all the time. I have had one full charge per month or slightly more due to longer trips etc. Staying low made my BMS overestimate the capacity, but now I think I have a slight underestimate due to the staying low principle.
I would not think that it is needed to calibrate to have a nice range number in your case. BMS calibration at high SOC hurts the battery a little more than just keeping low SOC. Driving down to 5% or so and let it sleep will not hurt at all but you only let the BMS see the low side of the battery capacity.
I would set sentry to ”off” if possible for some days and nights, preferebly set it to off always at home. The car do not sleep with sentry on and there is no real OCV voltages taken.

I would think ”I believe the battery is better than the BMS think” and accept the low offset.
A BMS calibration is possible and would probably increase your range but it only increases the number on the screen, it doesnt really increase the real range.
(My own thinking is that there is too much worries about the on screen range, which cause people to Actually slightly increase the degradation in the hunt for increased on screen range. The BMS:es is off from time to time, and a set charging schedule/driving habit might set the range back down soon after a BMS calib).
 
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I missed the part where you describe you charging habits. Am on a need to know basis....:)
My normal commute uses around 20-25% each day so I only charge to around 60% each day. On Friday before the weekend, I generally charge to 80% as I do most of my charging at work as it is free. I only charge to 100% and supercharge when I’m taking trips, which isn’t too often. It could be luck of the draw with the battery lottery, but like I said I’m good with believing it is my charging habits also lol.
 
1. Not probable that this is real degradation. 5% is possible if the battery has been really warn most days. (50 celcius or so). I have seen that the battery seems to stay around 5-6 Celcius above the ambient if the sun is shining on the car. (This at medium ambient temps, 20C or so).
2. Nope. Anything at 15-20kW or below is considered skow charging and would not affect the degradation ”at all”.
3. Depending on what heat you have, if it is put in the sun etc, heat is degrading the battery but low SOC is good and actually the best countermeasure except keeping out of heat (which is not an option for all).
( I’ll arrive at Las Vegas tomorrow, traveling only to check the ambient temps to have all battery degradation data ;) ).
4. I guess 50% or more of your loss is a calibration issue. Staying low held my M3P with the same battery at full range for almost 1.5 years / 40k Km, but I did not stay low all the time. I have had one full charge per month or slightly more due to longer trips etc. Staying low made my BMS overestimate the capacity, but now I think I have a slight underestimate due to the staying low principle.
I would not think that it is needed to calibrate to have a nice range number in your case. BMS calibration at high SOC hurts the battery a little more than just keeping low SOC. Driving down to 5% or so and let it sleep will not hurt at all but you only let the BMS see the low side of the battery capacity.
I would set sentry to ”off” if possible for some days and nights, preferebly set it to off always at home. The car do not sleep with sentry on and there is no real OCV voltages taken.
Thank you for the detailed response. While I know the summer months of June/July/August can be hot, the car is garage kept. However, ambient in the garage can reach 32C while sitting overnight with the car around 35% SOC before it scheduled departure charges to 50% by 9am.

The thing is I barely have experienced a summer so far and worried if say the 5% degradation is already happening. 5% degradation every year can hurt a lot after 5-7 years as I tend to keep cars longer. I did also purchase a 2022 M3P that arrived June 2022 and that is a car I plan to keep and enjoy for awhile too (have some nice suspension and mods planned for it).

It sounds like you are saying the display miles is only being impacted and the BMS mis-calibration could account for most of the so-called range loss. In reality, maybe my range may still be intact.

  1. Is there a way without getting a scanning tool to deduce how much kw/useable range my car has now?
  2. Also, I have wondered with the 11kw Tesla Wall Connector charger plugged in (scheduled departure), will the car pull power to keep battery temperature at a more optimal level.
  3. If I slow down the charge rate, will the active cooling during charging help?
  4. For the summer heat, when the AC runs for Cabin Overheat Protection, do you think the battery also gets cooled a little from the heat pumps and cooling being run?
  5. Are you really coming to Vegas? Lot of rain here lately so hopefully you get what you need temperature wise. And also let me know if you need help with anything.
 
Is there a way without getting a scanning tool to deduce how much kw/useable range my car has now?
The scanning tool will exactly match the mileage display in the screen. That’s the nice thing about the range display - no need to get scanner if all you want to know is your capacity.

The capacity loss is real as far as the BMS is concerned, and there is no other way to determine it. The point is that the BMS may be a little wrong, and may correct later depending on conditions, charging levels, use, etc. Do make sure the car sleeps, etc.
Also, I have wondered with the 11kw Tesla Wall Connector charger plugged in (scheduled departure), will the car pull power to keep battery temperature at a more optimal level.
No.



If I slow down the charge rate, will the active cooling during charging help?

I’m not aware of any active cooling that takes place in that scenario. It takes a lot of heat to have the battery be too warm. Most of the time the battery is being heated (or nothing is being done other than circulating coolant) while charging takes place, not cooled. With the new heat pump of course it can be used as a heat source so if you run the cabin heat that would probably cool it down, I guess? But then it will go right back into your (closed) garage and make everything even hotter! Best to do as little as possible as anything you do adds to entropy and the heat death of the system.

I guess if you charge more slowly the average battery temperature may be very slightly lower, but you will waste energy due to charging overhead, and you will put more on-time on your PCS. It really is a minimal amount of excess heat energy (about 1kW at 11.5kW charging) to dissipate in an enormous pack. Won’t do much. The coolant probably circulates enough in all scenarios that the heating difference is negligible.
 
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Thank you for the detailed response. While I know the summer months of June/July/August can be hot, the car is garage kept. However, ambient in the garage can reach 32C while sitting overnight with the car around 35% SOC before it scheduled departure charges to 50% by 9am.

The thing is I barely have experienced a summer so far and worried if say the 5% degradation is already happening. 5% degradation every year can hurt a lot after 5-7 years as I tend to keep cars longer.
Calendar aging reduce over time. (Reduces with square root of time).
If first year is 7% (just an example), you reach (the double )14% after four years and double it again to 28% after 16 years.

If you have an low average like 30-35% (like I do) you will not loose more than about 5% the first year.
5% after first year.
7% after year two
8.7% after year three.
10% after year four.
20% after 16 years.

I did also purchase a 2022 M3P that arrived June 2022 and that is a car I plan to keep and enjoy for awhile too (have some nice suspension and mods planned for it).
:)👍
It sounds like you are saying the display miles is only being impacted and the BMS mis-calibration could account for most of the so-called range loss. In reality, maybe my range may still be intact.

  1. Is there a way without getting a scanning tool to deduce how much kw/useable range my car has now?
We need to differ between BMS Range and true range (or BMS estimate of battery capacity and real battery capacity)
You can calculate the bms estimated battery capacity via the energy screen.
Search for this, but in short (in energy screen) [estimated range x consumption divided by SOC = total battery capacity, as estimated by the BMS.
But the on screen range is closely connected to this so this can be calculated from the max range as well.

The real range or capacity can differ from the BMS value if the bms is aff from the real capacity.
  1. Also, I have wondered with the 11kw Tesla Wall Connector charger plugged in (scheduled departure), will the car pull power to keep battery temperature at a more optimal level.
Only if the cabin temp exceeds the limit and that option has been selected to on…
  1. If I slow down the charge rate, will the active cooling during charging help?
Nope.

Also, the optimum battery temp during cycling is higher than 25C so for cycling 25-35C is good.
Its during sleep(battery rest) as the cell temp is better kept low.
  1. For the summer heat, when the AC runs for Cabin Overheat Protection, do you think the battery also gets cooled a little from the heat pumps and cooling being run?
I do not know, would not gues that.
  1. Are you really coming to Vegas? Lot of rain here lately so hopefully you get what you need temperature wise. And also let me know if you need help with anything.
Yes, holiday trip with my family. I hope to miss the rain :)
Just a few days, rented a Tesla and then the nice nature northwest of Vegas before San Fransisco.
 
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Calendar aging reduce over time. (Reduces with square root of time).
If first year is 7% (just an example), you reach (the double )14% after four years and double it again to 28% after 16 years.

If you have an low average like 30-35% (like I do) you will not loose more than about 5% the first year.
5% after first year.
7% after year two
8.7% after year three.
10% after year four.
20% after 16 years.


:)👍

We need to differ between BMS Range and true range (or BMS estimate of battery capacity and real battery capacity)
You can calculate the bms estimated battery capacity via the energy screen.
Search for this, but in short (in energy screen) [estimated range x consumption divided by SOC = total battery capacity, as estimated by the BMS.
But the on screen range is closely connected to this so this can be calculated from the max range as well.

The real range or capacity can differ from the BMS value if the bms is aff from the real capacity.

Only if the cabin temp exceeds the limit and that option has been selected to on…

Nope.

Also, the optimum battery temp during cycling is higher than 25C so for cycling 25-35C is good.
Its during sleep(battery rest) as the cell temp is better kept low.

I do not know, would not gues that.

Yes, holiday trip with my family. I hope to miss the rain :)
Just a few days, rented a Tesla and then the nice nature northwest of Vegas before San Fransisco.
Have a great trip👍😎
 
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