Range on midrange reduced to 219 miles

[AlanSubie4Life]

I think we agree so no need for a big long discussion. It is actually pretty hard to warm up a 600-1000 pound battery in mid-winter. So it’s fairly normal for many users (people with shorter commutes) to be operating with a perpetually cool battery in winter. So it is important to point out that special steps have to be taken if you want to assess your actual battery health in winter (and in extreme cold, it may well not be possible without bringing your car inside).

 

[duanra]

I think we agree so no need for a big long discussion. It is actually pretty hard to warm up a 600-1000 pound battery in mid-winter. So it’s fairly normal for many users (people with shorter commutes) to be operating with a perpetually cool battery in winter. So it is important to point out that special steps have to be taken if you want to assess your actual battery health in winter (and in extreme cold, it may well not be possible without bringing your car inside).

That is why i mention thise simple math which tells what the 100% would be regardless of the battery temperature.
That is what i notice with car anyway.
For the record, i live in Montreal so i experience this issue all the time.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

That is why i mention thise simple math which tells what the 100% would be regardless of the battery temperature.
That is what i notice with car anyway.

That number (in rated miles) will depend on the battery temperature. The rated miles is just energy and a cold battery has a lower value for the “fullkWh” readback.

My experience has been about 2% less energy than a warm battery has is available at around 35-40 degrees.

 

[BAven8068]

I think we agree so no need for a big long discussion. It is actually pretty hard to warm up a 600-1000 pound battery in mid-winter. So it’s fairly normal for many users (people with shorter commutes) to be operating with a perpetually cool battery in winter. So it is important to point out that special steps have to be taken if you want to assess your actual battery health in winter (and in extreme cold, it may well not be possible without bringing your car inside).

How much of a difference due to cold soaked battery vs warm battery are we talking here though? This is my second winter with my Mid Range and the first winter was spent in Chicago with temps well below where I’m located this winter. That first winter I never saw big differences like I am now also this winter I haven’t seen the snowflake even once and I’m seeing 20 miles less range on the display at 100%.

 

[duanra]

That is why i mention thise simple math which tells what the 100% would be regardless of the battery temperature.
That is what i notice with car anyway.

That number (in rated miles) will depend on the battery temperature.

To be honnest, i didn't see any variation with these numbers. I really hope you're right though, it would mean that my car doesn't the degradation i can see.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

To be honnest, i didn't see any variation with these numbers. I really hope you're right though, it would mean that my car doesn't the degradation i can see.

Would be good to get more data - though people have published plots here (@KenC, @insaneoctane ). You have to check with a cold battery, then really make that thing toasty with a blasting freeway run followed by Supercharging...then check again. I just have one datapoint (2% change, 6 rated miles, same day, between 35 degrees and 95 degrees). I live in San Diego so this is a very academic discussion for me in general.

 

[duanra]

Would be good to get more data - though people have published plots here (@KenC). You have to check with a cold battery, then really make that thing toasty with a blasting freeway run followed by Supercharging...then check again. I just have one datapoint (2% change, 6 rated miles, same day, between 35 degrees and 95 degrees). I live in San Diego so this is a very academic discussion for me in general.

Lucky you, i live in Montreal ! ;-)

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

How much of a difference due to cold soaked battery vs warm battery are we talking here though? This is my second winter with my Mid Range and the first winter was spent in Chicago with temps well below where I’m located this winter. That first winter I never saw big differences like I am now also this winter I haven’t seen the snowflake even once and I’m seeing 20 miles less range on the display at 100%.

It could be that software updates are doing a better job of reflecting the actual energy available with a cold battery. It’s important to get this right to avoid stranding so could be something they tweak. Search the users I mention above for posts with data.

 

[BAven8068]

It could be that software updates are doing a better job of reflecting the actual energy available with a cold battery. It’s important to get this right to avoid stranding so could be something they tweak. Search the users I mention above for posts with data.

Ok thanks, yes I did see your post after I asked this. Also it’s probably relevant to note that this large drop happened to my car in the summer. This is why the whole temperature argument doesn’t seem relevant to me. Yes it will cause you to have a less accurate idea of just how much you’ve lost but that amount compared to the actual reduction in range we are seeing is small it seems like.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Ok thanks, yes I did see your post after I asked this. Also it’s probably relevant to note that this large drop happened to my car in the summer. This is why the whole temperature argument doesn’t seem relevant to me. Yes it will cause you to have a less accurate idea of just how much you’ve lost but that amount compared to the actual reduction in range we are seeing is small it seems like.

Sure. You absolutely could be seeing a drop for other reasons as well. In general it seems for Model 3 it is good to plan for a 10% capacity loss after the first year based on reports here and Stats data. You might see a little less, but when you add in cold effects this seems safe.

 

[Toysla]

Hi, the estimated range on my midrange model 3 has dropped to 219 miles at 100% charge. Average wh/mi since taking delivery has been 240. 7800 miles on the odometer since 11/2018. Brought this issue up during multiple service visits and got the same answer over and over again: it's just an estimate not reflective of everyday real-world use, better to use the battery percentage instead, drop the charge to 20% then charge up to 100% to reset the BMS, etc. I've done the re-calibration procedure repeatedly and it never increased past 219 miles. What gives? I don't drive the car aggressively and my average wh/mi seems to be at the rated value. The service techs claim that they've remotely checked on my battery health and there's no issues with the cells, and no software limitations effectively limiting me to SR range. Has anyone experienced this much of a drop from the advertised range? Should I press Tesla to change out my battery pack?

Same story, different day. My AWD range has dropped over 7% average over past 5 months (showed 310 for full year and OCT '19 OTA update, with that car buggy game addition, my range started dropping). Same issues with ICE vehicles and EPA ratings- they're all over the place... Telsa warrants battery if 100% charge drops below 70% retention within warranty period (5 years?). In other words, unless your Model 3 gets LESS than 168 miles range, your car is "normal" and you will not get any replacement battery consideration.

 

[vickh]

Moral of the story is to wait till/ if it gets to 70%. Maybe by then batteries won't be as supply constrained or more efficient for bigger packs?

 

[TimothyHW3]

Same story, different day. My AWD range has dropped over 7% average over past 5 months (showed 310 for full year and OCT '19 OTA update, with that car buggy game addition, my range started dropping). Same issues with ICE vehicles and EPA ratings- they're all over the place... Telsa warrants battery if 100% charge drops below 70% retention within warranty period (5 years?). In other words, unless your Model 3 gets LESS than 168 miles range, your car is "normal" and you will not get any replacement battery consideration.

70% out of 310 is 217...8 years.
And your range didn't drop, more likely a miss-calibration of the BMS. This topic has been beaten to death. Ask Tesla to reset your BMS or don't charge daily and don't keep the car plugged in all the time and don't just top up between 60-90%.

 

[TimothyHW3]

Sure. You absolutely could be seeing a drop for other reasons as well. In general it seems for Model 3 it is good to plan for a 10% capacity loss after the first year based on reports here and Stats data. You might see a little less, but when you add in cold effects this seems safe.

I have no idea why you keep pushing that, but there is zero evidence that 10% is normal after 1 year. We hear people complaining about "loss of range" where it most likely is just uncalibrated BMS or wrong TeslaFi or Stats extrapolation.
10% after 1 year IS NOT normal. We have data from Bjorn Nyland(close to 1 year-4%) we have data from a 100,009 miles car after 3 years(8%) we have tons of other data from Scan My Tesla users please stop saying that it is normal or average to drop 10% in one year.
Unless you did 150,000 miles then no, anything more than 5% is NOT ok.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

We hear people complaining about "loss of range" where it most likely is just uncalibrated BMS or wrong TeslaFi or Stats extrapolation.

Check the posts where we have documented the charge event length. It is very much proportional to rated miles for a calibrated charging event at warm temps.

Clearly demonstrates capacity after correcting for efficiency. Anyone can test this - the charging efficiency is exceedingly well documented and anyone with a new car can also check it to compare to someone who is seeing capacity loss. Very excellent correlation.

Scan My Tesla users please stop saying that it is normal or average to drop 10% in one year.
Unless you did 150,000 miles then no, anything more than 5% is NOT ok.

I base my assertions on someone I know personally, what I see reported here in numerous well documented posts, and my own experience of at least 3% (I think likely closer to 6% due to energetic rated miles when new) over 14k miles.

You don’t have to search for long to find properly documented cases (not extrapolation error, not cold temps, etc.)

I am saying to EXPECT this. Not that you will get this. I did not say it was the “average.” It is good to have margin - you can be pleasantly surprised!

 

[St☰v☰]

I have no idea why you keep pushing that, but there is zero evidence that 10% is normal after 1 year. We hear people complaining about "loss of range" where it most likely is just uncalibrated BMS or wrong TeslaFi or Stats extrapolation.
10% after 1 year IS NOT normal. We have data from Bjorn Nyland(close to 1 year-4%) we have data from a 100,009 miles car after 3 years(8%) we have tons of other data from Scan My Tesla users please stop saying that it is normal or average to drop 10% in one year.
Unless you did 150,000 miles then no, anything more than 5% is NOT ok.

I agree with you 100%. I don't recall anything in my contract with Tesla saying that my 240 range miles would decrease by 10% over the first year. And, when I ordered my SR+, the website did not say 240 EPA range miles, it clearly stated a 240 mile range (now it's showing EPA miles). Last weekend I took a 1000 mile trip up to Monterey and back to my home to play a little golf. Not once did any of the super chargers ever charge my SR+ above 218 miles at 100%. And with all due respect to you folks that believe it's normal, I say it's bullsh!t. My ICE at 6 years old will still deliver the EPA MPG today as it did when it was new. My SR+ was consistently returning 216/240 epa range miles with each charge up until 36.2.1 was downloaded and it changed again at 40.2.1. How do I know this? Well, I keep a daily excel record of range miles when I leave my house, miles when I arrive at work, miles when I leave work, range miles consumed while parking at work, total wh/kw hours consumed per trip, to and from work. Actual speedo miles consumed each way, total actual (speedo) daily miles drive, and total epa range miles driven and inception to date averages in each category, and I've done this since day one. My spreadsheet also shows by date/speedo miles each time the system was updated by Tesla. So clearly Tesla's engineers are phuck!ng with the charging function or there's a design flaw in my batteries. And no, I'm not going to sell it, overall I'm happy with everything but the charging limitation and range, and yes, I will keep on b!tch!ng about those charging limitations/range until it's fixed which will likely never happen. And yes, I've tried re-calibrating the batteries over and over. 218 is tops folks. When I mentioned this to the service advisor he said it was normal and they have reams of data from thousands of model 3's that shows it's normal... more rhetorical bullsh!t. And once again, no, I'm not going to sell it, I like everything but the range and charging limitations.

 

[lanbo]

Ask Tesla to reset your BMS

This serves no purpose. Remember the guy that had his CAC reset? Well, after 6 months of that he is still with exactly the same degradation. In many cases it's the battery, not the BMS. Period.
See his comment after 6 months: Battery Degradation "fix"? : teslamotors

I have no idea why you keep pushing that, but there is zero evidence that 10% is normal after 1 year.
...
Unless you did 150,000 miles then no, anything more than 5% is NOT ok.

Well, I have installed the OBD and my Full Nominal Pack is 71.2 kWh. I have lost 7.5%. My car is less than 1 year old and around 15.000kms. The SC has told me my battery is normal. You tell people more than 5% is not ok but there's nothing we can do.

I've been changing charging patterns and tried several calibration techniques (as suggested per the SC). Every couple of months the BMS recalculates the capacity and subtracts 1.5%. I have the feeling the battery already started with less capacity and the BMS progressively readjusts the range to adjust to the real capacity. Either that or Tesla decided to cap some batteries for whatever reason they have.

There's nothing I can do. Really frustrating. It's the Tesla Battery Lottery.

 

[MP3Mike]

I don't recall anything in my contract with Tesla saying that my 240 range miles would decrease by 10% over the first year.

The warranty clearly states that they only warranty 70% of the stated range.

 

[golfleep]

Well, I have installed the OBD and my Full Nominal Pack is 71.2 kWh. I have lost 7.5%. My car is less than 1 year old and around 15.000kms. The SC has told me my battery is normal. You tell people more than 5% is not ok but there's nothing we can do.

I've been changing charging patterns and tried several calibration techniques (as suggested per the SC). Every couple of months the BMS recalculates the capacity and subtracts 1.5%. I have the feeling the battery already started with less capacity and the BMS progressively readjusts the range to adjust to the real capacity. Either that or Tesla decided to cap some batteries for whatever reason they have.

There's nothing I can do. Really frustrating. It's the Tesla Battery Lottery.

Same situation here - 9/19 build, 6000 miles, 72.2 kWh nominal full pack, 295 rated miles @ 100%. So about a 5% loss in less than 6 months ownership. When I started measuring at around 3000 miles, I had 74kWh. Haven't able to budge it yet with any of the calibration techniques, and am pretty sure it reflects the true state of my battery.

 

[hugh_jassol]

Well, I have installed the OBD and my Full Nominal Pack is 71.2 kWh. I have lost 7.5%. My car is less than 1 year old and around 15.000kms. The SC has told me my battery is normal. You tell people more than 5% is not ok but there's nothing we can do.

I also have OBD reader with SMT. My Nominal Full Pack has fluctuated bu up to ~2 kWh. Remember that the Nominal Full Pack is the BMS's estimation of the capacity of the battery. When mine changed the most: once after the car sat for almost two weeks straight at >85% charge (indicates that some balancing took place) and once after I supercharged to 100%. For the SC, I sat in the car and watched the Nominal Full Pack rise as the SC hit 100% and then kept going for a while.

I have a mid-range and the Nom Full Pack at the time I bought by OBD reader was 57.7 kWh. My rated new is 62.5 kWh... so by that I had 7.68% degradation. However, currently, I am at Nom Full Pack has increased to 59.1 kWh (5.44% degradation). For one charge, I saw a few tenths above 59.1 kWh.

So, clearly I have some battery degradation... but exactly how much is unclear... I'm guessing it's closer to 5.4%.

When my car was just in for its HW3 retrofit, I asked them to do a battery health check because I have seen 15-20 of "range loss" - they said, "your degradation should be leveled out now" - which tells me that my pack isn't the best they've seen, nor the worst... As I could see their face as they looked at the data and were making a "so-so" kind of expression.

Anyway, you can't 100% go by the Nom Full Pack number in SMT either... as it's only an estimate as well.