TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

Range Reduced on Dual Motor Configs?

Discussion in 'Model S: Ordering, Production, Delivery' started by DJ Frustration, Nov 6, 2014.

  1. DJ Frustration

    DJ Frustration Model X Sig, Former Model S, Model 3 Res

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2012
    Messages:
    632
    Location:
    Miami, Florida
    I've been thinking about this since the Dual Motor versions of the Model S were announced in October. Here goes.

    I would argue that the realistic range of the Model S D configuration is actually LESS than the non-D.

    Here's my reasoning:
    For those of us who were around when the Model S was first released in 2012 you can remember that Tesla and Elon first said the car would have a range of 300 miles. Then they got into some heat with that claim when the EPA came out with their 265 "Rated" range. However, the 300 mile range came with assumptions like "ideal" driving conditions. I can't recall what those assumptions are, but I bet they were pretty similar to what Tesla is now assuming when they state the range for the Dual Motor configs as "295 miles at 65 mph". To anyone who recalls the 300 mile claim of the non-D config, this represents a reduction of 5 miles for the S85D and 15 miles for the P85D.

    So my question is, are we getting tricked into believing that the D configs have added range when the reality is that they have a decrease? Is Tesla advertising "ideal" range on their website for the D configs? Please discuss.
     
  2. wycolo

    wycolo Active Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2012
    Messages:
    2,425
    Location:
    WY
    Consider that the front motor is geared higher thus offering greater efficiency at faster ground speeds. At those speeds the front does more of the work. At lower ground speeds the rear motor does more of the work befitting its lower gearing. The D can offer more than just the sum of its parts, so to speak.
    --
     
  3. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2013
    Messages:
    3,017
    Location:
    Delaware
    If you remember, the 300 miles was at 55 miles per hour.

    I don't know how accurate it is, but the calculator on the Tesla homepage shows 261 miles for the 85 kWh RWD model S at 65 mph - a very close match for its EPA rating, and ten percent less than they are promising for the 85D.
    Walter
     
  4. jgs

    jgs Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2014
    Messages:
    951
    Location:
    Ann Arbor, Michigan
    In addition, it's been suggested the dual motors may offer more effective regen.
     
  5. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Messages:
    12,756
    Location:
    Texas
    Depending upon how much usable energy the battery has there is somewhere between
    74000/251 = 295 miles
    and
    81000/251 = 322 miles
    based on my usage. Seems pretty close to me. The EPA numbers can be spun in any number of ways.
     
  6. ckessel

    ckessel Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2011
    Messages:
    4,266
    You're a bit mistaken there. 300 was based on the old EPA test, which was the standard back when the S was announced and in testing. EPA then changed their test and the S got 265 on the new test.

    There was no "heat with that claim", the test simply changed and Tesla changed their number accordingly.

    If Tesla says more range with the dual motor, it has more range. They aren't gaming the number dual motor number.
     
  7. breser

    breser AutoPilot Nostradamus

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2014
    Messages:
    2,310
    Location:
    North Bend, WA
    The exact quote and your characterization don't really match. There's a difference from not having the information and not being willing to share it. I'd say the person you're talking with sounds willing to share it if they had it.

    That said, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have distributed that information to delivery if it was available since you know people are going to be asking these sorts of questions at delivery.

    It would be interesting to see if the other vehicles had a surge in build starts recently, but we can't really see that because there's not very many cars on the order tracker.
     
  8. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2014
    Messages:
    5,388
    Location:
    Ithaca, NY
    This would be quite an issue, and I, for one, would be very disappointed.
     
  9. flyboyzz1

    flyboyzz1 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2014
    Messages:
    46
    Location:
    Chicago
    Agree completely. Might have been a huge factor in my decision to switch from the P85 to the D. Depends on how much of a decrease.
     
  10. dennis

    dennis P85D

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,223
    Location:
    Silicon Valley CA
    From the epa.gov website:
    Auto manufacturers are responsible for testing vehicles in their laboratories according to EPA test specifications and reporting fuel economy values to EPA.

    Since Tesla determined the numbers I doubt there is disagreement over them.
     
  11. gpetti

    gpetti Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,574
    Location:
    Calgary, Canada
    Sadly, this is probably true but as I said earlier this fact has been obscured a bit. Many discussions of the"D" tend to use the range of the 85D and the performance of the P85D as if it were one car. The reality appears to be different. If you look at the design studio (on the US site) the 85D shows 265 miles range (EPA) and 285 miles range at 65 mph. The P85D mentions the 285 miles range at 65 mph but does not mention the EPA range. I think that originally it showed the EPA as being about 10 miles less but that figure is no longer in evidence. The motor trend review says of the range: (about 4 percent better for non-Performance versions, 3.5 percent less for the P85D). Obviously magazine articles can be wrong but I'm pretty sure this information is sound. I guess the reassuring thing is that the current numbers suggest that is we drive a consistent 65 mph we will get the same range as the 85D.
     
  12. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2014
    Messages:
    5,388
    Location:
    Ithaca, NY


    In that first message above, which was the one I had been responding to, you made it sound like you didn't think there was any change in how Tesla was actually producing the P85D, but rather just a change in how they were displaying the status on the dashboard. That's what I had responded to by pointing out the fewer cars that seemed to be going into production (which we now agree on.)


    I could definitely be mistaken on this but at some point didn't the P85D show a range of 295 miles in the design studio? I'm pretty sure either the P85D did or the 85D did or maybe even both did.
     
  13. MarcG

    MarcG Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,668
    Location:
    San Francisco
    The 85D still shows 295 miles "ideal" range (at 65 mph). P85D is at 285 miles:

    Screen Shot 2014-12-04 at 3.21.32 PM.png
     
  14. EarlyAdopter

    EarlyAdopter Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,497
    Location:
    Redmond, WA
    As I recall it, the 85D showed a range of 295 miles at 65mph and the P85D showed a range of 275 miles at 65mph at one point.
     
  15. MarcG

    MarcG Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,668
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Model S 65 range: 215 (ideal), 208 (EPA)
    Model S 85 range: 285 (ideal), 265 (EPA)
    Model S 85D range: 295 (ideal), no EPA yet
    Model S P85D range: 285 (ideal), no EPA yet
     
  16. gpetti

    gpetti Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,574
    Location:
    Calgary, Canada
    I hadn't selected the AWD version of the 85 so I was seeing the old version. I guess it makes sense that the EPA range isn't on there as per the many comments above. So in summary, at 65 mph, the P85D is listed as the same as the S85 but the 85D is listed as 10 miles higher.
     
  17. MarcG

    MarcG Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,668
    Location:
    San Francisco
    WHOA!!! 242 miles range??? No wonder they're delaying release...

    Thanks a bunch for posting such a nice quality photo :)
     
  18. commasign

    commasign Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2013
    Messages:
    1,058
    Location:
    Davis, CA
    Re: 242 miles range. That may factor in the 21" wheels. Maybe cars with 19" wheels will have more range.
     
  19. JBrown4390

    JBrown4390 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2014
    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    Rather significant decrease in range.... That's not good.
     
  20. rays427

    rays427 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    156
    Location:
    Penn Valley, CA
    The epa rating on the P85D shows 242 what is it on the s85 and s60. I assume they are also lower than what Tesla shows at 65 under ideal conditions.
     

Share This Page