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DJ Frustration

Former Model X Sig, Model S, Model 3, Model Y
Jun 19, 2012
685
138
Miami, Florida
I've been thinking about this since the Dual Motor versions of the Model S were announced in October. Here goes.

I would argue that the realistic range of the Model S D configuration is actually LESS than the non-D.

Here's my reasoning:
For those of us who were around when the Model S was first released in 2012 you can remember that Tesla and Elon first said the car would have a range of 300 miles. Then they got into some heat with that claim when the EPA came out with their 265 "Rated" range. However, the 300 mile range came with assumptions like "ideal" driving conditions. I can't recall what those assumptions are, but I bet they were pretty similar to what Tesla is now assuming when they state the range for the Dual Motor configs as "295 miles at 65 mph". To anyone who recalls the 300 mile claim of the non-D config, this represents a reduction of 5 miles for the S85D and 15 miles for the P85D.

So my question is, are we getting tricked into believing that the D configs have added range when the reality is that they have a decrease? Is Tesla advertising "ideal" range on their website for the D configs? Please discuss.
 

wycolo

Active Member
May 16, 2012
3,099
468
WA & WY
Consider that the front motor is geared higher thus offering greater efficiency at faster ground speeds. At those speeds the front does more of the work. At lower ground speeds the rear motor does more of the work befitting its lower gearing. The D can offer more than just the sum of its parts, so to speak.
--
 

Saghost

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2013
8,224
7,088
Delaware
If you remember, the 300 miles was at 55 miles per hour.

I don't know how accurate it is, but the calculator on the Tesla homepage shows 261 miles for the 85 kWh RWD model S at 65 mph - a very close match for its EPA rating, and ten percent less than they are promising for the 85D.
Walter
 

jerry33

(S85-3/2/13 traded in) X LR: F2611##-3/27/20
Supporting Member
Mar 8, 2012
19,998
24,672
Texas
For those of us who were around when the Model S was first released in 2012 you can remember that Tesla and Elon first said the car would have a range of 300 miles.

Depending upon how much usable energy the battery has there is somewhere between
74000/251 = 295 miles
and
81000/251 = 322 miles
based on my usage. Seems pretty close to me. The EPA numbers can be spun in any number of ways.
 

ckessel

Active Member
Jan 15, 2011
4,455
400
For those of us who were around when the Model S was first released in 2012 you can remember that Tesla and Elon first said the car would have a range of 300 miles. Then they got into some heat with that claim when the EPA came out with their 265 "Rated" range.
You're a bit mistaken there. 300 was based on the old EPA test, which was the standard back when the S was announced and in testing. EPA then changed their test and the S got 265 on the new test.

There was no "heat with that claim", the test simply changed and Tesla changed their number accordingly.

If Tesla says more range with the dual motor, it has more range. They aren't gaming the number dual motor number.
 

breser

AutoPilot Nostradamus
Aug 28, 2014
2,314
94
North Bend, WA
I updated my post at the top of this page with the response, which was basically "we're not willing to share the numbers at this point".

The exact quote and your characterization don't really match. There's a difference from not having the information and not being willing to share it. I'd say the person you're talking with sounds willing to share it if they had it.

That said, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have distributed that information to delivery if it was available since you know people are going to be asking these sorts of questions at delivery.

Not necessarily. Tesla wants to ship/deliver cars, so if there is a delay with unknown resolution date that's preventing them from releasing P85Ds to customers and recognizing revenue, they're better off building AND shipping other models they know can be released instead of piling up P85Ds that can't be delivered.

It would be interesting to see if the other vehicles had a surge in build starts recently, but we can't really see that because there's not very many cars on the order tracker.
 

Andyw2100

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2014
6,542
2,442
Ithaca, NY
There was a post on the TM forums where someone was contacted by their DS warning that the P85D they had ordered would have less range than the S85 they had currently. I'd be ready for some range decrease.

This would be quite an issue, and I, for one, would be very disappointed.
 

dennis

Model S Plaid
Jul 26, 2012
1,962
4,999
Silicon Valley CA
Also only true if the EPA issue is resolved quickly. If there is some issue with that (arguments over the numbers, etc.) that could also pose a bigger problem.
From the epa.gov website:
Auto manufacturers are responsible for testing vehicles in their laboratories according to EPA test specifications and reporting fuel economy values to EPA.

Since Tesla determined the numbers I doubt there is disagreement over them.
 

gpetti

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Nov 6, 2013
1,639
120
Calgary, Canada
This would be quite an issue, and I, for one, would be very disappointed.

Sadly, this is probably true but as I said earlier this fact has been obscured a bit. Many discussions of the"D" tend to use the range of the 85D and the performance of the P85D as if it were one car. The reality appears to be different. If you look at the design studio (on the US site) the 85D shows 265 miles range (EPA) and 285 miles range at 65 mph. The P85D mentions the 285 miles range at 65 mph but does not mention the EPA range. I think that originally it showed the EPA as being about 10 miles less but that figure is no longer in evidence. The motor trend review says of the range: (about 4 percent better for non-Performance versions, 3.5 percent less for the P85D). Obviously magazine articles can be wrong but I'm pretty sure this information is sound. I guess the reassuring thing is that the current numbers suggest that is we drive a consistent 65 mph we will get the same range as the 85D.
 

Andyw2100

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2014
6,542
2,442
Ithaca, NY
I'm still not sure which reason I believe but if it is stickers I think they have just made a decision not to show the completion status until the car has that sticker. My situation seems to illustrate this further where the status had shown completed for several days but then they chose to flag it as still in product. It's possible too that they would rather have the cars show as still inProduction during this delay than look like undelivered inventory, regardless of what the actual delay is. Depends which metrics they are sensitive to.



I agree that production seems to have slowed down with regard to P85D (as per our sample of TMC users). As others have pointed out, they could focus on other models while the P85D is held up, but additionally whatever the hold up is, they can only pump out so many cars and stockpile them. They are not setup for large inventory storage other than however they are handling international vehicles etc.

In that first message above, which was the one I had been responding to, you made it sound like you didn't think there was any change in how Tesla was actually producing the P85D, but rather just a change in how they were displaying the status on the dashboard. That's what I had responded to by pointing out the fewer cars that seemed to be going into production (which we now agree on.)


Sadly, this is probably true but as I said earlier this fact has been obscured a bit. Many discussions of the"D" tend to use the range of the 85D and the performance of the P85D as if it were one car. The reality appears to be different. If you look at the design studio (on the US site) the 85D shows 265 miles range (EPA) and 285 miles range at 65 mph. The P85D mentions the 285 miles range at 65 mph but does not mention the EPA range. I think that originally it showed the EPA as being about 10 miles less but that figure is no longer in evidence. The motor trend review says of the range: (about 4 percent better for non-Performance versions, 3.5 percent less for the P85D). Obviously magazine articles can be wrong but I'm pretty sure this information is sound. I guess the reassuring thing is that the current numbers suggest that is we drive a consistent 65 mph we will get the same range as the 85D.

I could definitely be mistaken on this but at some point didn't the P85D show a range of 295 miles in the design studio? I'm pretty sure either the P85D did or the 85D did or maybe even both did.
 

MarcG

Active Member
Oct 29, 2014
3,840
5,285
San Francisco
I could definitely be mistaken on this but at some point didn't the P85D show a range of 295 miles in the design studio? I'm pretty sure either the P85D did or the 85D did or maybe even both did.

The 85D still shows 295 miles "ideal" range (at 65 mph). P85D is at 285 miles:

Screen Shot 2014-12-04 at 3.21.32 PM.png
 

EarlyAdopter

Active Member
Jun 24, 2012
2,831
2,095
Redmond, WA
I could definitely be mistaken on this but at some point didn't the P85D show a range of 295 miles in the design studio? I'm pretty sure either the P85D did or the 85D did or maybe even both did.

As I recall it, the 85D showed a range of 295 miles at 65mph and the P85D showed a range of 275 miles at 65mph at one point.
 

MarcG

Active Member
Oct 29, 2014
3,840
5,285
San Francisco
Model S 65 range: 215 (ideal), 208 (EPA)
Model S 85 range: 285 (ideal), 265 (EPA)
Model S 85D range: 295 (ideal), no EPA yet
Model S P85D range: 285 (ideal), no EPA yet
 

gpetti

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Nov 6, 2013
1,639
120
Calgary, Canada
As I recall it, the 85D showed a range of 295 miles at 65mph and the P85D showed a range of 275 miles at 65mph at one point.

I hadn't selected the AWD version of the 85 so I was seeing the old version. I guess it makes sense that the EPA range isn't on there as per the many comments above. So in summary, at 65 mph, the P85D is listed as the same as the S85 but the 85D is listed as 10 miles higher.
 

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