Range Reduced on Dual Motor Configs?

[crazybrit]

It makes no sense that the P85+ with 21s would have the same EPA rating as an S85. Isn't it well established that the 21s reduce range? Also, a high performance car always consumes more energy, I have to believe the same is true for electric power trains.

 

[uselesslogin]

The thing that jumps out to me is the City, Highway are different between the D and non-D but the Combined is the same as is the 38 kWh/100 miles. But why does the D version only go 242 vs. 265 for the non-D?

Yes, essentially the testing starting for 2013 models uses a 90% battery charge to calculate range. The testing procedures in May of 2012 when the Model S was tested was from a 100% charge.
2013 Nissan Leaf Real-World Range: Is It Any Higher?

 

[AlMc]

I'm perfectly happy with the new range. When I'm doing a lot of city driving, I don't need the range. When I do need the range I'm on the interstate, and I'll get more range there.

I agree that this will have minimal affect on my enjoyment of the car. However, it is unfortunate that at the D event and on the website we were all given not only the impression but at the D event, Elon's word, that through the efficient shifting of electrons to one or both of the motors under different driving conditions that the car would have an increase in range. I did not expect to have a better range than a P85+ in the 'insane' mode.

I do hope that when we all actually get our vehicles that we will see an increase in highway range when driven appropriately.

 

[MarcG]

All of us owners who have sold/traded in cars with the expectation of 285. Wow. This is hard to believe. I will have a BIG problem with Tesla if this was mis-represented.

I don't think anyone here should have expected 285 miles of range out of the P85D on the EPA cycle, but the gap between 285 @ 65 mph and the supposed 242 on EPA is much larger than 285 to 265 on the S85...

 

[felixtb]

I do hope that when we all actually get our vehicles that we will see an increase in highway range when driven appropriately.

Yes I think we will looking at the highway milage of the EPA rating. where the D is considerably more efficient than the RWD models.

 

[Eclectic]

Here is an enlargement from that post. 242 EPA miles for the P85D.

View attachment 65197

Interesting...if you scan that QR code it takes you to the fueleconomy.gov page for the 2012 Model S. Not the 2013, not the 2014. Either they have been using an outdated QR code for a long time or this sticker may have been cobbled together from parts of an older sticker.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

This may be interesting to some. In the public area.

View attachment 65167

RWD Model S85 is rated 88 City, 90 Highway, 89 Combined

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=34775

Hmm... -2 City, but +4 Highway, and stays 89 Combined.

 

[uselesslogin]

I don't think anyone here should have expected 285 miles of range out of the P85D on the EPA cycle, but the gap between 285 @ 65 mph and the supposed 242 on EPA is much larger than 285 to 265 on the S85...

I'll just keep repeating that the range calculation done in 2012 for the original Model S was from a 100% charge and 2013 and later it was revised to 90%. So the EPA rating if the same cycle were run is 269.

- - - Updated - - -

Interesting...if you scan that QR code it takes you to the fueleconomy.gov page for the 2012 Model S. Not the 2013, not the 2014. Either they have been using an outdated QR code for a long time or this sticker may have been cobbled together from parts of an older sticker.

They did not test the "2013" or "2014" Model S. The original EPA test was announced in May of 2012.

 

[Eclectic]

I'll just keep repeating that the range calculation done in 2012 for the original Model S was from a 100% charge and 2013 and later it was revised to 90%. So the EPA rating if the same cycle were run is 269.

- - - Updated - - -


They did not test the "2013" or "2014" Model S. The original EPA test was announced in May of 2012.

But in the 2013 sticker that was posted in this thread the QR code takes you to a 2013 model. So they were updating the QR codes in 2013, if not 2014...odd that they would have gone all the way back to 2012 QR codes if this is a legit P85D sticker.

 

[Saghost]

Yes, essentially the testing starting for 2013 models uses a 90% battery charge to calculate range. The testing procedures in May of 2012 when the Model S was tested was from a 100% charge.2013 Nissan Leaf Real-World Range: Is It Any Higher?

This.

The testing protocol changed in an attempt to handle the difference between a typical charge and a range type charge. Honestly, I think the new system is screwed up and makes cars look worse without good reason, but that's the way the EPA went.

Since they are messing with the available battery aspects of the test, focus on the other pieces instead. 88 MPGe city and 90 MPGe highway turned into 86 city and 94 highway - meaning the P85D picked up almost 5% on the EPA highway test, but lost a few on the city test due to the higher weight. That's more or less what we expected, and in line with Tesla's guidance about range at a constant 65 mph.

I'm confident that folks driving cross country with the Dual Motor cars will get more range than the older cars do in comparable circumstances, even though the EPA muddied the waters.
Walter

 

[Cottonwood]

Yes, essentially the testing starting for 2013 models uses a 90% battery charge to calculate range. The testing procedures in May of 2012 when the Model S was tested was from a 100% charge.
2013 Nissan Leaf Real-World Range: Is It Any Higher?

If that is the case, then 244/90%=271 miles range. That looks a little better.

Because I ordered my P85D with 19's, I wonder if I will see better numbers...

 

[Arb1ter]

If that is the case, then 244/90%=271 miles range. That looks a little better.

Because I ordered my P85D with 19's, I wonder if I will see better numbers...

It looks like the EPA numbers are based off of 19" wheels, as 21" wheels would increase energy consumption considerably.

For highway conditions, the EPA numbers are in good agreement with Tesla's.

(242 miles_combined * (94 MPGe_highway / 89 MPGe_combined)) / 90% (full charge) = 284 miles highway range

The design page gives a range of "285 miles at 65 mph".

 

[dennis]

Yes, essentially the testing starting for 2013 models uses a 90% battery charge to calculate range. The testing procedures in May of 2012 when the Model S was tested was from a 100% charge.
2013 Nissan Leaf Real-World Range: Is It Any Higher?

I do not believe that is true for the Model S. As reported previously in many threads, Tesla put the charge slider in specifically so that the EPA number would NOT be an average of the 93% and 100% charge levels previously selectable when charging. AFAIK all Model S EPA ratings are for a full charge.

 

[WarpedOne]

You are accusing Tesla of deceit. Very nice of you.

 

[MartinAustin]

It looks like the EPA numbers are based off of 19" wheels, as 21" wheels would increase energy consumption considerably.

For highway conditions, the EPA numbers are in good agreement with Tesla's.

(242 miles_combined * (94 MPGe_highway / 89 MPGe_combined)) / 90% (full charge) = 284 miles highway range

The design page gives a range of "285 miles at 65 mph".

That's a 1 mile difference! I am very disappointed in Tesla for this.

:tongue:

 

[David_Cary]

I do not believe that is true for the Model S. As reported previously in many threads, Tesla put the charge slider in specifically so that the EPA number would NOT be an average of the 93% and 100% charge levels previously selectable when charging. AFAIK all Model S EPA ratings are for a full charge.

This is right. The Leaf got penalized in 2013 at a 90% charge level. The efficiency went up with that model year but the range went down. In 2014, Nissan removed the 80% option and the EPA range returned to 100% level. The Leaf got set at 90% because it was an average of the 80% and 100%. Tesla came out with the slider at the time of the rule change and the thought was it was to work around that ruling. I have a 2013 Leaf.

It is certainly possible that the D is a "new model" and the EPA had another rule change to penalize the slider. But until now, the rule was an average of charging settings. The slider was exempt. If it wasn't, then you would have seen some change with the 2013 rule change and you did not.

 

[andrewket]

This.

The testing protocol changed in an attempt to handle the difference between a typical charge and a range type charge. Honestly, I think the new system is screwed up and makes cars look worse without good reason, but that's the way the EPA went.

Since they are messing with the available battery aspects of the test, focus on the other pieces instead. 88 MPGe city and 90 MPGe highway turned into 86 city and 94 highway - meaning the P85D picked up almost 5% on the EPA highway test, but lost a few on the city test due to the higher weight. That's more or less what we expected, and in line with Tesla's guidance about range at a constant 65 mph.

I'm confident that folks driving cross country with the Dual Motor cars will get more range than the older cars do in comparable circumstances, even though the EPA muddied the waters.
Walter

I think Walter nailed it, and I'll take this trade-off. Around town the slight loss in range won't matter as a single charge will be more than enough for my daily use. When range really matters - highway driving on trips, the P85D gains 5%. Let's not forget we also gained AWD and a insanely fast car.

(Now if Tesla would just start delivering!)

A

 

[uselesslogin]

I do not believe that is true for the Model S. As reported previously in many threads, Tesla put the charge slider in specifically so that the EPA number would NOT be an average of the 93% and 100% charge levels previously selectable when charging. AFAIK all Model S EPA ratings are for a full charge.

Well I don't know but the P85D has 89 MPGe and uses 38 kwh per 100 miles right from the sticker and the standard P85 is the same. So unless the battery packs are different sizes the 242 number doesn't make sense any other way.

 

[vgrinshpun]

Well I don't know but the P85D has 89 MPGe and uses 38 kwh per 100 miles right from the sticker and the standard P85 is the same. So unless the battery packs are different sizes the 242 number doesn't make sense any other way.

I have an alternate explanation for the reduced range number. Reposting from the short-term thread:

There is a reason why P85D has three modes: NORMAL, SPORT, INSANE.

After Elon's presentation on D I was wondering why these buttons are required at all? The answer IMO lies with the fact that tuning two motors for efficiency (NORMAL mode) will not result in best acceleration, while using two torque curves of drive units to achieve fastest acceleration (INSANE mode) might not result in the best efficiency. This is actually what Elon alluded to in his presentation.

The problem with EPA sticker is that it allows only for one range number. So the question is what number should go on the EPA sticker? Clearly the sticker will show the lowest number, not the highest. So my conclusion is that we are trying to start a storm in a bath tub.

NORMAL = EPA range 265 miles
SPORT = EPA range ??? miles
INSANE = EPA range 242 miles

I bet that delay might be because Tesla is negotiating with EPA on some way to put both highest and lowest number on the sticker in order to fully represent capability of the car.

BTW, it is absolutely insane that EPA range in INSANE mode drops only to 242 miles.​

 

[3s-a-charm]

I have an alternate explanation for the reduced range number. Reposting from the short-term thread:

There is a reason why P85D has three modes: NORMAL, SPORT, INSANE.

After Elon's presentation on D I was wondering why these buttons are required at all? The answer IMO lies with the fact that tuning two motors for efficiency (NORMAL mode) will not result in best acceleration, while using two torque curves of drive units to achieve fastest acceleration (INSANE mode) might not result in the best efficiency. This is actually what Elon eluded to in his presentation.

The problem with EPA sticker is that it allows only for one range number. So the question is what number should go on the EPA sticker? Clearly the sticker will show the lowest number, not the highest. So my conclusion is that we are trying to start a storm in a bath tub.

NORMAL = EPA range 265 miles
SPORT = EPA range ??? miles
INSANE = EPA range 242 miles

I bet that delay might be because Tesla is negotiating with EPA on some way to put both highest and lowest number on the sticker in order to fully represent capability of the car.

BTW, it is absolutely insane that EPA range in INSANE mode drops only to 242 miles.​

I saw only Sport and Insane mode - no "normal"...?